Final table of 11r I am 4 of 9. Basically just want to make sure nothing regarding ICM says this is anything but a shove or 3b/call

ICM will not tell you to 3b/f here if you are afraid to 3b/c.
you cant construct a realistic range this is a -$EV 3b/c against SB vs BB for <30BB.

i think you cant even construct a szenario where shove > 3b/c in terms of $EV but thats closer than my first sentence.

if you want to keep it simple 3b/c and dont think too much about it. if you are never light in this spot if you 3b but you shoved alot before just shove and get called by A8s/ATo/KQs etc.

never 3/b folding here. Was thinking if there were any merits to flatting with 4 shorties, but that just seems pretty bad. Just over-thinking the spot

there is only 1 shorty and its 9handed, so ICM considerations are kinda unimportant in this spot.
obv you have to consider 3b/c when there are more severe ICM spots 4/5handed with 2 shortys.
in general just look at the $EV value of your stack when you fold, 3b/c, 3b/f, 3bshove to find out whats best. obv you cant do the math ingame in like a min but your get a feel about it by time.
in terms of flatting, its +cEV and +$EV for sure with AQ in this spot unless you click buttons postflop.
so just go with recent dynamics, mostly 3b/c.

There's 3 more stacks under 12bb's though

I just jam

yea but they can survive very long pushbotting and most players dont 3bshove too light once they have like 9-13BB since they lack FE & since there are 2 other 10BB stacks who they want to survive.
the 4/5BB stack cant do anything/gotta gamble.

if SB is capable of spazzing:
3b/calling>shoving>flatting

Yeah I get that I just think I want to take the lower varience route at a final table though I'm not that sure how much their ranges alter to a 3bet than a jam.

That said we have a final table hand a poster that understands ICM enough to post it as a consideration in the title but little enough that he doesn't include payouts, sigh

3b/c is absolutely atrocious

I'd just cram too but not 100% sure its correct

whats with the superlatives?

also, no.


not 3b/cing AK = close to insanity?

huh? just eyeballing it 3b/cing AK looks like burning hella $$$

you cant be serious sunny...
dont even think its close with AQ.

like look at the $EV of shoving and compare it to 3b/c. look at the equity difference vs his light(AJ-/KQ-) range compared to how much $EV we gain when we fold it out.
if we get it in here with AQ vs Ax x<Q and KQ /KJ/QJs type of hands we are in 60:40 / 70:30 spots which will be increase our $EV more than if he folds these hands.
also we dont get better hands to fold with the shove.

the only reason to shove > 3b/c is to balance if we shoved before imo. and maybe he snaps A8s/ATo kind of hands since we shoved before.

i'll do the math on 3b/c compared to 3b/shoving if OP gives payouts/reads on ranges
so far i'm just making asumptions but in most of these spots we want him to 4bshove when we have AQ here and not to fold.

how exactly are you looking at the $ev?

I'm also pretty sure him folding KJ is good for us and it may be that folding AT/J is good for us also.

atm not at all since we have no payouts

getting the $EV of folding is simple, look at the $EV value of each stack after posting blinds/antes

getting the $EV of shoving i showed here
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87...-spot-1130562/
put him on a opening range, see how often he will fold, see what equity you have when called. add up the numbers. compare the $EV of shoving to the $EV of folding.
shove should be >>> fold just by feel.

the EV of 3b/whatever can be done:
1) put him on an opening range
2) determine how often he will fold to a 3b (same math as 3bshoving, but he will fold less often)
3) -> determine how often he will 4bshove. then look at the $EV value when 3b/folding. look at the $EV number when you 3b/c and call&win. look at the $EV number when you call&lose. see if 3b/c&win - 3b/c&lose > 3b/f

hope that makes some sense. its easier with numbers.

Yeah I get that and it's explained well it's just we can't compare of the $ev of various actions without the payouts.

Intuitively think that jamming is better but can't be sure without numbers and even then will have to try and decide the difference in the range he folds to a jam or jams against a 3bet.