they really should get rid of close position spawns on metaloplolis and lost temple. its not just that you're close to each other but you can't take a 3rd that you can actually defend.

Isn't that just a different style of play? Forcing the two players to make a move. It's like blinds that make stacks shorter.

I think I'd rather play Steppes than close positions on Metal, but I don't think there's a good reason to remove it.

sure but this clearly favors terran and protoss over zerg. your analogy is ok but in poker you're all playing with the same cards. in SC there are 3 different decks. also, making stacks shorter decreases the skill gap by making the game easier (less decisions = easier game). why would you want that?

No, everyone is equal. You could have picked any race.

I don't understand your point about removing close positions on Metalopolis entirely.

You want to get rid of it because it favors T/P? Why not get rid of Shakuras or Scrap Station then since they favor Z?

The map pool is diverse and your match-ups/spawn locations are chosen randomly. Furthermore, like Cue said, you can pick whatever race you like. No one has an inherent advantage in that regard.

EDIT: I guess match-ups aren't random, but for all intents and purposes saying they are(by race) isn't too much a stretch from actuality.

fine but my main point still stands. if you're equating the close spawns to playing with short stacks then i don't see how that's a good thing. its just taking a lot of skill away from the game.

Changing game dynamics. Let it be the difference between 100 deep and 500 deep.

meeeeeh its an ok argument but the thing is, there are many stack depths below 100bb that make the game simpler. you can't get any simpler than rushing off of 1 base which is what the close spawn positions promote while also discouraging more complex play by not letting you expand past 2 bases.

i would have no problem w/ the close spawns if for example, they had a natural expansion available on both sides of the main with access to the rest of the map. then you get the nice variety in game dynamics that you're talking about (could be a fast rushing game, could be a 2 base timing, could be an epic long macro battle) but close spawns on metalopolis and lost temple force you into playing one type of game which is the exact opposite of what you are arguing for. i mean i really don't get why you want to force people into one type of game. and don't even try to argue that shakuras plateau and scrap station force you into a macro game because there are still tons of successful 1 base all-ins on those maps.

The maps are different. Variety is good.

As for the second part, no one said those maps force players into a macro style, I just said that they are better for Z in general.

Okay, I'm done arguing this. You're an idiot.

Well I mean Blizzard has said they want the map pool to be composed of many different types of maps that encourage many different styles of play. The ladder experience should vary widely from game to game. In order for this to be true, some maps have to favor certain play styles and consequently certain races.

His argument that close positions on Metal favors T/P might be true, but that is by design. I mean one could also roll cross positions or close air positions.

If it were the same thing over and over it would get boring and stale.

by your reasoning then, you would be in favor of having a map w/ no expansions. its different so its good? come on. there's clearly a threshold of "badness" that you won't tolerate just for the sake of variety.

also lol @ cueball calling me an idiot. also lol @ you being done "arguing" since you haven't given any reasoning for your assertions. why is making the game simpler good? unless you're arguing that promoting 1 basing doesn't make the game easier. in which case i would like to hear an explanation of why this is the case and i would argue that your shorter stack depths analogy would be a bad one (i actually think its a pretty good one).

There absolutely is. Close positions on Shakuras. There are balance issues with that situation. Metalopolis does not fall into that category in any way though.

/discussion

Played a friend in custom 1v1. We were even in food right before the fight. I saw and prepared for his stalker/zealot/sentry+colossus army but yet the battle wasn't even close. I was missing workers on one gas geysers out of 6 but I'm not sure if that would of made a difference? In the end, I was really starving on gas and couldn't make enough roaches.

Usually I don't post replays in this thread since I can almost always look at my own and pinpoint some major mistakes that I made, but this one kinda had me scratching my head so I figure I'll post it.

I felt pretty in control this whole game, until the very end. Comments appreciated.

As far as I can tell it was mostly just
1. 2/1 zerglings vs. 1/0 infantry + 0/0 Thor -- I usually focus on upgrades especially in this matchup but I was really bad about it (got double Ebay and didn't use it)
2. Letting my marines die at the 4th base pretty much cost me the game
3. I probably should have thrown down like 6 more unit producing structures once I took the gold. I only put down 3 barracks and on top of that they were late, so my money was skyrocketing.

i think it was a combination of a few bad decisions.

1. you lost too many units early in the game, especially in that 2nd attack. i think for first marine/scv attack did enough damage that it was worth losing all the units but your 2nd attack got crushed. this led to you not having enough marines for that final battle.

2. too much mutalisk defense. you had like 4 thors and a bunch of turrets. i think its better to pick one or the other and free up resources for other stuff. for example, if you rely on turrets then you can make a bunch of tanks instead of overmaking thors. if you rely on the thors you can make a bunch more rax and have inf marines.

3. there was really no reason for you to try and take a 4th base. zerg was only on 3 bases and he didn't have a gold so you were already ahead in econ. you needed to focus on production and massing units.

looking at my post now it basically just came down to you not having enough marines (upgrades for the marines would obviously have helped as well). fwiw i was impressed w/ your macro up until you got the gold base up. after that you were floating 2k minerals which again cut into your marine count.

Going to post this here since I'm hoping this replay gets more views since I don't think everyone opens the Protoss thread.



This was a PvP I just played. Hoping some people can give me some pointers. I'll put my thoughts below.



I always feel like I'm waiting too long or that I'm not doing something right. It's like I fear the monster facing me. I was really nervous when the game started, but then I just tried to calm myself down. I'm trying to get comfortable, but I feel like I have to hurry up and do everything or I'll fall behind.

I haven't watched the replay but just want to reflect on your comment

Borrowing from Day9, your hands and your eyes shouldn't be doing the same thing at the same time. Simple example: You send your scouting probe -- you can watch what your probe scouts on the screen (eyes) and at the same time use hotkeys to build probes out of your nexus (hands). Obviously there are cases where you have to look to do stuff (like put down buildings) but this is a pretty good general rule. When you research an upgrade, you don't really need to be looking at the forge or robotics bay or whatever to upgrade -- hit your hotkey for the building + hotkey for upgrade, and your eyes can watch the map/minimap the whole time.

In the case of building units as you attack, you can use your eyes to watch the battle, and then use hotkeys to build units (probes, colossus, void rays, whatever). As protoss you have to warp in at a pylon, but you can still just tap your warp gate key once to see if they are ready for cooldown, and then go back to watching the fight. If you need to look away to warp in units, then use your main vision focus on the minimap and just haphazardly put down units to warp in.

Thanks. Definitely think I overextended myself on the 2nd push, and overdid turrets a bit which could have been more barracks. I think that is actually the key that links everything together.

I disagree about taking the 4th -- no reason not to try to take a larger economic advantage if I am ahead, right? If I had gotten some turrets and planetary down, it would have been way easier to defend. Though I suppose a 4th on that map is particularly hard for terran since all possible expansions open up more attack paths for zerg. With just the gold defended, I pretty much defend my entire base. Once I get a 4th up, I can get caught out of position.

I guess that's easier said than done. I am probably the worst at having buildings hotkeyed, micro'ing, and using the hotkeys to build units. Maybe 1 out of 5 times I'll remember to hit 5 (nexus) and then get a probe started. And it gets infinitely worse once I get up into my robo, and any other building beyond the gateway. I always just go back to my base and click whatever it is that I need. It is going to be super hard to change that. I can start off by using 5 > E when there is no pressure and I'm just sitting at my base, but once everything gets going my instinct is to click what I want and then use the in-game hotkeys. What I mean is, I'm good with the hotkeys for Z, E, S, I, C, and buildings, but it's nonexistent that I'll have a production building on my 6 control group and use 6 > I or whatever. I'll just go back to my base, click the robo, and then click I.

I'm getting better at looking at the mini map and my supply count. I get supply blocked less than I did when I first started playing this game.

And usually what I do for my scout probe is that I just shift-click it around his base and then do what I need to do, and then every so often I'll look at my probe to see what it's seeing or redirect it incase I want to see something specifically. For example, my PvP above I had to redirect it to see if he got his second gas, but for the most part I just had it going around in a circle.

I'm going to have to really practice hard on hotkeying my production buildings and solely using the hotkeys to start the units.

How can you not watch the fights? You need to pull back weak units, reposition, kite, use abilities, etc. What does he mean by this?

My understanding was that instead of sitting there watching the fight and how it plays out you should be macro'ing, doing what you need to do at your base, putting up an expansion, whatever, etc.

However, I think there is a degree to which you should be watching and not watching, as in, don't just sit there until the fight is done. Watch it to micro, but then at a safe chance, you go back to your base and do what you need to do to keep the game going...don't just give up once the fight starts. If that makes sense.

My problem is that I just sometimes never watch the fights.

Any reason why you don't watch?

I guess you have to find times in battles where you can safely macro, but I can't imagine completely ignoring them.

Umm..usually I'm warping in units, doing whatever at my base, putting down pylons. I can't even remember everything I'm doing. I feel like I'm getting so behind when I'm not doing something macro related because if I lose the fight then my base is going to get steamrolled. My macro is very sloppy. I feel like everything is rushed. When I watch Trump, he seems so relaxed and fluid, like he isn't in a rush to do anything, but he's very efficient. I feel like if I'm not going spastic then I'm going too slow. I guess most of it is just inexperience and trying to find my playstyle.

BTW, Trump vs. RaNGirLxD (2p2er) on his stream right now.

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Trump