No I haven't received confirmation of actions taken against any of the people I've reported. I did receive a response from Nick about 4 days ago that they'd be "looking at these issues more completely". I asked him to take a look at this thread and comment. So Nick or Baard, if you're reading, it'd be great to you hear from you.

Also Nick asked that I send the screen capture to the high stakes email so Baard could see it as well- I had sent it to his Skype initially.

Not meaning to stir it up here, but TP, you've also sat out when the fish leave. In fact a lot of the regs posting in this thread have done so. While Stars should police this better, it isn't ok to report others when they do it, and do this yourself because you feel it isn't being policed properly.

One issue about JH's proposal is there are a lot of fish who want to come in for a quick hit and run. While it sucks on the first instance, it also encourages them to keep on trying, and they will usually continue to play in the future if they have had the taste of winning before. I think it is unreasonable to tell people they have to play for a certain number of hands. Not being able to sit out is a better option IMO.

The issue we're reporting isn't people sitting out when the recreational player leaves, everyone is doing that including me. The original proposal to play 3 orbits didn't work so we've abandoned it and are back to the status quo, which is insta-sitting out and leaving the table. I only started doing this again 3 days ago after playing to my big blind for an entire month at 30-60 at higher (I have no intention of doing this again). We need Poker Stars to implement a solution to this and there have been some very good ideas in this thread and Phil Galfond's thread.

The issue we are reporting is sitting out when the recreational player is sitting out at the table. Since I was informed of the rules (see earlier in the thread) about two months ago, I have either continued playing or left the table when the recreational player sits out. These are the rules and everyone should be following them.

Again, TP, this is not personal and directed at you. Is there a significant difference if you are leaving the table when a fish sits out or leaves and then come back when they return? I think it has the same effect on fish. In fact, coming back into chat to warn specific players that you are going to report them when fish are at the table is probably not great for the game either. Fish will wonder why you are reporting someone.

This situation reminds me of how I treat my employees. When things are running well, you don't really need to enforce rules and regulations. Everyone is doing well and respecting each other's right to make money. There may be a couple of angle shooters, but since everyone is doing well, no one complains and the system works. This was online poker several years ago.

When the pool dries up or business is not so good, you need to make sure you create a system such that there is no way to angle shoot and so you can still be profitable. Complaints and disagreements during this time increase. Discipline must be strict and you may need to hire fewer staff members. The best way to do this in online poker is to make changes to the software to not allow sitting out since the policing is obviously not working and actually impractical dollar-wise, since dedicating a staff member to this task would be a full-time job. While this is unfair to those who follow the "rules", there are too many complaints of non-compliance. If this is going to kill the games, and online poker companies want to keep things going, they must remove this "privilege" until it gets better, if ever.

Yes there's a big difference.

Intentionally sitting out when a recreational player sits out without leaving the table is breaking Stars rules.

Instantly sitting out and leaving the table when the recreational player leaves the table isn't violating any rules.

We have a rule for the former and if enforced properly should solve the problem. That's why we are reporting people.

The latter is a bigger problem IMO and not easily solved. As I said, many people have come up with good ideas and it's up to Poker Stars to take action.

Here are the rules if you're interested: http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/policies/ring/ (See 10 and 11)

Thanks for the clarification. I respect your principle to tell others they are in violation of the rules. However, IMO, it may not be the best thing to tell others you are reporting them in the chat.

Your point is well taken. I feel like I should give people a chance to do the right thing. I really don't want to report people, particularly regulars that I've played with for years. That said, the recreational players are probably wondering what the heck I'm talking about and personally it's very costly to me every time I start typing in the chat. I end up making mistakes, losing track of action, timing out etc. It's really a pain in the neck to be policing games while trying to 4-5 table short-handed high limit games.

I will take your advice, I'm done warning people in chat.

as i understand it, the ability to hit and run would not be affected. anyone wanting to hit n run still plays through to their BB anyway. if his system was implemented they would just play through until whatever position they started in comes up again.

fwiw i think removing the ability to sit out is way too extreme, as is the suggestion to force people to sit out on all tables.

i think your analogy is reasonably apt and this rule definitely needs to be revised or removed until a better solution can be found. as far as angle shooting goes, the status quo was perfectly fine before they instigated the sit out rule. now we are stuck with an ineffective unenforceable rule thats simply in place because some feel the status quo demonstrates bad etiquette.

The rules are far from unenforceable, if Poker Stars takes action against the people, the problem will stop. To take this to an extreme, if people were continually warned and kept violating the rules, they would be suspended or banned. This would most certainly stop the problem.

These rules were put in place by Poker Stars, not the players. Again, the rules essentially say if you're sitting at a poker table, you should be playing poker. I agree with those rules and regardless of whether you agree, they are the rules.

I'm really losing my patience with this whole thing, if Poker Stars doesn't respond here or to my email (see below) *and* start enforcing this, I'm done with my crusade to help the games. This is more tilting than fifty consecutive bad beats.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: xx
To: highstakes@pokerstars.com; vipclub@pokerstars.com
Subject: RE: Player Sitting Out
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 09:06:23 -0800


Baard, I've never seen you on Skype. I added you weeks ago, did you accept the invite? - my name is Anthony Pirone.

I have reported at least ten offenses to Nick and I've never received an immediate response, in fact most he has not responded to at all or I have received a response several days later.

What are you guys going to do to enforce this better? The lack of response and effort is frustrating to say the least. Do you understand how difficult it is for the player who are playing several tables at time, to track and report this? And then to get no response...

Tony




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:26:09 -0500
From: highstakes@pokerstars.com
To: xxxx
Subject: Re: Player Sitting Out

Hello Tony,

Unfortunately, we have to catch players red-handed when they break the rules. If we should rely on player reports alone, we would quite certainly get into situations where some players would be falsely accusing others, and that would be really bad for everyone.

The best thing to do is to contact us on Skype and let us deal with the situation as it unfolds. Granted, we are not online 24/7, but it is the only feasible way of dealing with this problem. Some players will get away with their infringements some of the time, but if they are consistently doing this, they will certainly be caught.

Best regards
Baard
Poker Room Management


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: xxxx
Sent: 02-04-2012 13:00:39
To: highstakes@pokerstars.com
Subject: Player Sitting Out


Please see attached, player xxx was sitting out waiting xxx to return.

A little more background, I initially sent the attachment to Nick on Skype and he asked me to send it to highstakes@pokerstars so Baard could see it.

It's all about respect for the fish, it shouldn't be all about the money. Or maybe I say this wrong. I respect fish a lot, I like most of them, 'personally'. Of course for sharks it's all about the money, and I am playing to make money. But come on for me keeping fish happy and keeping the habit of doing nothing disrepectful to them ever is of wayy more value dan just making the most money. That's the problem in this western society anyway; it shouldn't be ALL bout the money.

I think ive said this before, but PS really needs to start enforcing these rules actively or they should remove the rule altogether. Having to rely on the regs to do the policing for them is not good enough and to also not even take what they get from the regs seriously is just a slap in the face.

The longer this thing hangs there in limbo, with the guys doing the best job taking the biggest cost, the worse it reflects off of PS

Yeah Stars needs to step up or it's pretty unreasonable for them to expect any of us to follow the rules.

This looks ridiculously frustrating from the outside.

Creating a rule that is not being enforced is even worse than not having that rule in the first place. You have people like TP who are trying to respect the rule and obviously getting frustrated that others are not being "punished".

This is like the boss who proposes a rule to help close a loophole, and doesn't enforce it. Employees who are abiding by it feel slighted that others are getting away with things. If the boss cannot spend the time, effort, or money to enforce something, either they remove the rule (problems will continue to persist) or remove the loophole.

It seems like PS is not able to enforce this rule. If they are unable to do so, they should remove the rule (which will not help solve any of the problems PS players are complaining about) or remove the problem (ie, not allow anyone to sit out). While some players may not agree with it, it will give everyone the same "disadvantage", not require any policing, and should help the games.

I share the frustration. I understand that the guys in charge are doing the best they can - based on the rule and the reports... but while it it's possibly making a difference, it's still not fair to the people who are attempting to follow the rule.

Simply allowing a way for people to report by email using Hand histories or screen shots and then issuing warnings would help.

Why isnt it possible to simply click on the "call moderator" button if u want to report someone, like u can do if someone does chat violation e.g.
Its too much of an effort to write an email first and it also takes too long until sanctions are applied.

Back at the tables after a longer break. Things obv havent changed for good. The status quo for the minority of players who follow stars rules and either leave the table or continue to post blinds is just unacceptable.
After weeks of this discussion Stars isnt willing or able to enforce their sit-out rule, so i dont see why they would in the near future.
I am back in sit-out mode and for those who still continue to report players: "Keep on going." I kind of hope for a warning to see that they finally take it serious.

anybody still bothering to report people?

did you ever get a response to your screenshot email piranha?

Yes sort of. I'm scheduled to have a conversation with Baard tomorrow morning. I'll keep you posted.

I sent a screenshot of a 6max table where everyone was on sit out an hour ago. Lets see what stars is answering.
Anyway, i have to say that stars is doing a lousy job so far.
If u are not able to enforce your own rules, u shouldn't even bother establishing them.
If stars doesnt give me a satisfying answer, im thru with this topic.

Anybody else notice the "sit out next hand" option isn't always available? Or is it just me?

have not noticed that. only sit out next hand, or sit out next bb also? how recent? screenshot?