I think we are hurting our own games by instantly sitting out when a non-reg sits out or leaves the table. I also think we're in danger of losing the most well known high stakes non-regular.

As long as is this is acceptable to Poker Stars and everyone else, here's what I propose (and please feel free to revise, add suggestions, etc):

-If you're willing to agree to play, post here with your screen name.
-If there's 3 or more of us at a table, then we play for a minimum of 15 minutes regardless of whether the person is sitting out or has left.

I think this should erase the non-regs false idea that we might be colluding. And it should also serve to start more high limit games as it's possible someone else will sit when 3+ players are playing.

If there's a Stars rep reading this, please let us know your thoughts.

TPirahna

I´m in, regardless if its 15 minutes or another solution. I think it might be easier to convince everybody to play two orbits, as the player on sit-out will be removed from the table after missing 3 big blinds.

asso

Yeah, right. People insta-sit out of live $300/$600 games when people are glaring at them and calling them out to their faces. You think a bunch of people hiding behind the anonymity of the internet are somehow going to do what is best for the games? No shot.

thanks for sharing. i guess we can close this thread then.

The problem is that if one person sits out, then the next person is forced into the difficult situation of deciding to play or risk getting "buttoned". In the current state of the games everyone is sitting out because it's inevitable they'll be buttoned if they don't. I think a lot of people, most in fact, are sitting out for that reason alone, not because they are "hiding behind the anonymity of the internet". I certainly understand your point though.

The reason people are forced into sitting out is because there's no communication among the players. They're forced into it (myself included) because of the actions of a few people. I'm hoping this thread opens the door to communicate and agree to a solution.

You may be able to convince people, and for your sake I hope you can. My experience has been that when people are put in a "screw or be screwed spot", they choose to screw even if it hurts them long term.

The player who is single handedly keeping online limit holdem a float is getting super pissed off that we are all sitting out whnever he sits out.

This is a BIG issue, if someone can link this to the german forums id aprecaite it.

I sign up..

So far its me, tpirahna, asso.. I know KPR and otter will be down.

FWiw I hate playing most of those guys who will be willing to play, so this isnt for short term profit. ITs for long term sustaince of the games.

Guys like fama, umumba etc, probabily wont be in.. But I suspect guys like valesco, yanekk.

I think this should really only apply to 8sup for now.

I hope you're wrong about it, time will tell I guess.

The important thing for everyone to understand is that it's for the benefit of the regulars, non-regulars, and the site. The regulars and site obviously because more games will run and there's more money to be made. The non-regs because there isn't this chorus of insta sit outs that can easily be misconstrued as people colluding or teaming up on one person. I think most non-regs just want a fair game and want to be treated on the same level as everyone else. And they should be treated like everyone else. Their motivations might be to gamble, kill time, compete, etc. Whatever it is, I know if I were in their position and everybody sat out every time I did, I'd feel belittled and very possibly stop playing.

I am in, but we need a clear rule how many orbits/hands will be played, because otherwise the prisoner's dilemma will only be delayed. The person to sit out first will still be the winner.

Yeah maybe orbits is easier. I'd vote for 4 orbits at least initially since it'll likely be 3-handed mostly unless a lot of people agree. 12 hands isn't going to take a long time especially if I'm not in the game. Somebody could just type last orbit or something to make sure everyone's on the same page.

this is news to me... i figured he was the one guy most likely to not care at all. has he been complaining in chat lately?

also, im a bit skeptical that a 3 orbit dog and pony show will do much to appease someone making those complaints.

He HAS to know that he is the reason the games go, but fish do not want to be treated merely as ATM machines. Given how much he's blown it is quite clear that the money is of no consequence to him and if he feels like he is just "one of the guys playing poker" he'll likely be happy to play and continue to do so. What you need is someone personable and entertaining to keep him interested and having fun, but unfortunately interpersonal relationships do not seem to be the strong suit with many high stakes online players.

I would also be in, and if it only was to surprise Heisenb3rg (as you can see I even created a 2+2-account for that, my first post...).

We definitely need fixed rules. A problem might be that someone multitabling could forget about it in the first time, since we all are used to sit out and will have to learn first.

I'm also interested in what super wrote in the chat or somewhere. I can't believe he will ever quit, because he seems to be a real addict (from a moralic point of view we should maybe even try to make him quit, instead of making proft from his disease, but that's another question). As Trypta said he always seemed like being the one with the smallest problems about the situation (sometimes he is on tilt though). But it's also a good idea to keep other players in the game.

yes of course, i make that statement mostly because ive never seen him complain in the past.

and if someone wants to feel like "one of the guys playing poker," then how is playing an extra 15 hands after they quit going to change that?

its conceivable that the gesture would go a long way, but i need convincing.

Ok well, I'm in for the 8su game at least.

I think this is a very good idea in theory but it's so hard to make work in practice.

What I really think would best solve the problem was if Stars gave a bonus to whoever posts (or actively tried to post) the LAST big blind when a game breaks, like a "last man standing" bonus. It could be small, like .25/BB maybe? I don't know if Stars would find it reasonable, but if the race became "be the last to quit" instead of the first, games would run hours longer, new fish would sometimes join etc.

to do this the software would have to pick up on whether or not you had the "sit out next hand/button" selected, but that seems doable.

Pretty good advice. It somehow hasn't bothered him for many years, but this is def the correct attitude towards it.

I actually chatted with him the other day, he owns a company with 4k employees, I'm sure he has more money than any of us here.

i'm in. what about we play at least 3 orbits and then just the player in the BB can decide to sit out by typing "last orbit", after which one orbit will be played by everyone obv.

I understand what you're saying and I think that some people will figure it out and be just as pissed but many won't. I think it's even worse when the non-reg sits out temporarily and everyone sits out - I think in these instances we should be playing even longer like 15 minutes or maybe 5 orbits. I think change can only help the situation though and can't be any worse than the status quo.

I dunno, I emailed Poker Stars High Stakes, maybe they can come up with a better solution. But we need one and quickly.

Well the problem is that it sounds like the damage has been done. If he's already getting pissed off, he could easily quit but then lurk a while to see what happens, and he'll obviously see the game break not long after he quits. To make matters worse, he probably also will see an argument in chat about who screwed over who with regard to getting buttoned (maybe the plan will work flawlessly, but as stated earlier I highly doubt it.) He may not interpret the game breaking as him being the ATM, but he may think something fishy is going on and that he may be getting cheated. It looks like the horse may already be out of the barn here.

People in so far:

asso999
JesusLebtNOT
Heisenb3rg
TPirahna
Umumba
JLlama (At least SP games)
yanekk

I'll keep updating the list and hopefully if and when PokerStars gives the ok or makes another suggestion we can iron out the specifics. I'm agreeable to pretty much anything.

I don't play in these games but I think you're best chance of making something like this work is to get Stars to change the seating rules for the high limits games. Something like not allowing more than one person at a time to be sitting out at the game. If a second person sits out they automatically get kicked from the table and someone on the waiting list gets a shot.

This would mean that when the fish sits out all the regs have to face the decision of losing their seat or carrying on and hoping the fish comes back. Some people will decide to leave but if the waiting list is deep enough then you'll probably find enough people to keep the game going.

I wish sites would become aware of the destructive dynamics that occur between regs and change the rules to stop them. Seat-hopping is another example which could be eliminated by sites putting a rule in which prevents players from leaving a seat and taking a different seat at the table within the next 15 minutes. Seat-hopping is +EV for each reg who does it but neutral EV in the long-run if everyone does it and -EV in the long run if everyone does it and it scares some fish off.

well the first idea is horrible. unless you think if another reg is sitting out you should snap-lose your seat if you have to go take a piss.

tpirahna idea is alright and not exactly new, but will fail like every other of these. Who's gonna post the last button? Why do only superstars sign up for those lists? Say i'm a 1BB/100 loser in that non-8super-5handed lineup. Why should i just give 60 bucks to you people when i could just not? What if i'm willing to play anyhow and have to leave for real life reasons? Insta-Scumbag Thief Scammer. I mean, it's just very hard to beat the prisoner's dilemma in that spot. Especially after 8sup has proven for years that he's not caring a whole lot

good point SG, but if the majority of the regs in that game play a little extra, the amount of equity lost (by whoever, even if a weaker reg just doesn't "sign up" and takes a bit from everyone else) is well worth it if it preserves the game running at all.

The risk of him actually "retiring" is up for debate though.

by "superstars" i obv meant "superstars+jdalla"

well that was implied ldo