Karma can go a long way, dude. You should have given him the pot. That's like watching someone drop their wallet and then you don't return it. Ya, he'll never know and neither will anyone else, but that doesn't mean you should freaking keep it.

Yeah...I definitely should have told him to table his hand when I started to see he was probably going to fold...

And just forfeit a $500 pot...

Are you out of your mind?

Oh. Okay. So because it's MORE money that means it's okay and totally not unethical. Good logic.

That is what I do but it's not what you did. You're taking heat bec some ppl are going to think you angled. I think that it's right on the edge and I wouldn't do it. Just fast roll and say nothing. If he misreads/mucks it's on him, if the dealer or some other player says something that wakes him up that's too bad.

Mentioning the amount of money makes it look worse. I think that you're taking the criticism as 'what am I supposed to do, throw MY hand into the muck or tell him that he wins?' No, you certainly don't do that but you also don't TRY to get him to muck his hand.

That is what I did, I fast rolled and didn't say a word. When originally posting the hand I thought I had said pocket 3's, but then thought back and realized I didn't, because I didn't want any other players to take notice and say anything in case he ended up making a mistake and mucking. Which I guess is an angle without being an angle...

But even had I announced "I have pocket 3's"....I don't think that is being shady or unethical...that is what I have. Now villain can look at the board and figure it out.

How do you try and get someone to muck their hand? I mean it isn't like I expected him to muck once I turned the cards over, although I did have a strange feeling he was going to do just that, because he did seem kind of disheveled still from a couple recent bad beats he had. So I turned them over and the ball is in his court now.

I always indicate that I was bluffing when caught... I think doing anything other than what you usually do at sd to induce someone to muck a winner is unethical. You certainly did that here. Miscalling your hand to get someone to muck is cheating... Saying you have pocket threes on 6688x is Miscalling your hand.

That's fine that you do that. I got caught bluffing today betting an OESD to the river and flipped over my hand the same way and didn't say a word. But I am not playing poker looking to angle shoot whatsoever, whatever happened in that hand was impulsive, because all I was thinking to myself was **** I can't believe the board double paired...and was already down 600 fairly quickly at that point...

I can understand that you may not believe me when I thought back and realized I didn't call my hand. And TBH, now that I am re-thinking it I am not even 100% sure that I didn't call it because I wasn't thinking clearly when that river came and I'm betting in rhythm knowing I'm probably toast.

So I mean whatever...I'm not looking for opportunities to do these sorts of things where I'm right on the edge of ethical and unethical. And tbh, had i thought it was borderline unethical, I obviously wouldn't have posted it on a forum. So, thank you for pointing this out to me, as to know that saying pocket 3's on a 6688x board is miscalling your hand.

I didn't bring the cards back or anything, I just didn't throw them in the middle...And turned them over right where they were during the hand right in front of my stack, which is still too close I think, considering I did want him to fold and thought he might.

But you know what... you are right, this does come off as scummy and I was thinking it was totally fine and well within the parameters of the game when it really isn't, now that you have made me aware of this.

When I see him next I am going to give him back the $180 he had invested in the pot. I'll even try and have HB verify this when they are both playing at the same time.

I've played with HB for a while now, and I don't think I would be putting words in his mouth saying that I am completely confident that he has never suspected me of purposefully doing anything even potentially shady at the table with all the hands we have played together.

its not essential you do this $180 bit at all, but if you did it, would truly smooth the air, shows ethics for sure...which i already think you have just from reading the thread...not like the worst angle or "angle without being an angle" or anything ever, you know?

I would not beat yourself up over it in any case...

I'll speak up for you since I've never seen you pull any sort of angle. I think that this is a learning experience for you. I also wouldn't give the money back,, tbh. Not bec I want it but bec the other player may not even be aware of what happened and the whole thing would be akward or is blaming himself and is thinking of it as HIS learning experience. I'd just be more careful in the future if you want to be sure that you're playing ethically.

You guys are from another planet. Players are responsible for their own hands. If they misread their hand and fold, are you going to interrupt their muck action and let them know? Many hands are won by bad players incorrectly folding winners. Unless like you see in Omaha, when majority of players turn their cards over for dealer to figure out who has the winner.....keep taking his money, only 3-4 bet this player in the future...

I've seen Daniel Negreanu do this a couple times on HSP, snap-flip-over a failed bluff. It looked like he was trying to induce a muck (I think he said something as well)...not to mention his recent 'misclick' at the EPT. These actions are borderline unethical and I think the popular opinion is close to 50/50 on these.

Def not cheating, a little unethical for sure but 100% not cheating. I think Silverman's thought process through this hand in terms of ethics wasn't the best. Saying you have 3's w/ the intent to get someone to muck is a little scummy here. Although when Tobias Reinkemeier got Roland De Wolfe to muck the best hand at showdown at the EPT I don't think there were any objections raised because of his actions. IMO, I enjoyed seeing De Wolf demoralized because I can't stand that guy. Something I have noticed when it comes to these little situations that happen live is that the people who sometimes do these things are mostly live players and the people who object are either online players or at least those who are really active members in a poker forum. Players, like Daniel, who obviously don't find it unethical, have cut their teeth playing live. I would be interested to know what everyone else thinks about this...are the people who object to these 'unethical' moves mostly online players?

Link to De Wolf v. Reinkemeier hand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyE

Thank you Runningman and HB...appreciate it...

The funny thing is, had someone else spoke up and got villain to take notice I would have gotten mad. Whenever I see these things happen where someone tables a loser and the guy with the winning hand is about to fold I never say anything.

Now I know that that is perfectly fine for another player to speak up, granted I still won't personally do it when I see it happening in a hand I am not involved in.

I'll still probably give him back his $180 mostly because he is a very nice and cool guy, and I don't think he is a lurker, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is. So I don't want him to potentially see this where I wasn't 100% on the up and up (mostly unknowingly) and then have him think I'm an *******.

But as far as the one poster saying I should have just given him the pot, that is ridiculous...he is definitely over 50% responsible for what ended up happening, and I feel giving back his investment in the pot is fair.

Whoa, let's not get carried away here. It's NOT ok for another player to speak up and I'd get mad if someone did it. The thing is is that 'they' can't help themselves and more often than I care to remember will say stuff like 'you can't beat 3 high?' or w/e else it is that breaks the OPTAH rule (the time somebody should speak up is when all hands are tabled and a mistake in awarding the pot is about to be made).

We're talking about inducing another player to muck by means of some trickery. Just above somebody said that this case is 50/50, I said it's right on the edge. If you want to be secure in your own mind then just roll over your hand and what happens happens.

It's 100% cheating

Several months ago I was playing in a very good short handed 40 Holdem game at Caz. There was a particularly bad player in the game who was very stuck.

Anyway in a 3 bet pot pf, I had a small pair which was counterfeited on river. River checks through and I show my hand saying, you've got it now. The dealer reads the hand properly showing that I am playing nines and eights instead of my two sixes. He flashes me aq and then mucks his hand saying you got it. He then reaches back to the muck to grab his cards but they can't he distinguished. He looks stricken when he realizes his mistake a moment later- and I inform the dealer to push him the pot. He suggests that we chop it instead and I'm pleased w the result as is he. The dealer actually has to ship me the pot for the cameras so I chop it and give him half.

Two hours later he busts out of the game stuck another probably 3 racks. On his way out he gives me a card for his practice and I've seen him a half a dozen times for completely free since then. He still brings this up almost every time that I play w him.

I was pleased w myself for how I handled this situation. Chopping the pot kept him at the table, convinced him to rebuy in a situation where he was not a favorite, and strengthened/created a friendship. I also ended up receiving chiropractic adjustments for free for months whose value way exceeded the amount of the pot. In poker terms this decision was life and game EV+ and ended up making everyone at the table money.

I think it was the best decision for me- I encourage u to make the best decision for you and applaud you for wanting to return the $180 to him.

If someone miscalls their hand and I see them do it I always say something. Obv I never say anything if they just flip it up.

Just for the record there's a difference between fast rolling your bluffs and Miscalling your hand. The first can be anywhere from fine to really unethical depending on lots of factors (eg fast rolling and tipping the dealer is unethical, turning your hand over the way you always do is fine). What SM apparently did here is probably on the line, but since he stated in this thread that he was trying to induce the other guy to muck the winner, I think it skews toward unethical.

As far as what name pros do... Guess what, they can be unethical too. Shocking right?

It's pretty simple really: at sd the best hand should get the pot. Personally I make every effort to make my five card hand known to my opponents. If you want to flip your hand and let them read it, that's completely fine too.

Miscalling your hand to induce a muck is 100% cheating. In most places you can get your hand killed for doing so.

Might wanna ask a mod to remove the name in there jonboy.

What are you basing this on?

Good story Jon, and I am not surprised in the least in how you handled it. I didn't even have to read the last half of the story to know it would turn out the way that it did.

No need to applaud me returning his $180 when I see him next, although I appreciate the comment. Not doing this for bonus points in people's eyes. I would suggest people focus more on the fact that I am a moron for actually thinking how this hand played out was mostly ok considering how much I play, than the good gesture of returning him his $180.

Whether I said "pocket 3's" or not. At the time I literally thought just saying what I had in my hand was ok, even though it is in fact wrong to call it that way. For those that know me...they will tell you that common sense isn't always so common to me, HB and Jonboy can verify that...

Thx, my bad guys. I can't edit now but am hoping a mod can do quickly.

Most places you get your hand killed when you misrepresent on the river, its a little different then miscalling. Miscalling your hand while tabling it, will never get your hand killed because 'cards speak'. Again motif has almost everything to do with it. A guy who says to his buddy he has 2 pair when actually he has quads isn't that bad if they are both okay with it. On the other hand if someone says they have 2 pair and the other guy has nut-overpair on a paired board and shows, then its not cool at all.

I mean let's say someone has ahac on the four diamond board, gets called on the river and says "flush" while turning over his hand... This person, in my mind, is not only scum of the earth, but also should have his hand killed regardless of whether cards speak or not.

Obviously saying "pocket threes" on the 8866 board isn't nearly this bad and I've seen people announce their hand this way innocently before. The reason I mention it to SM is because I don't think he wants to act in an unethical manner and he's walking a fine line in this spot.