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Old 09-12-2012, 05:06 PM   #1426
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

H1: looks ok. That can be a blockbet from Kx or a vbet with a worse Ax.
H2: raise more ott and shove river for value. Qx never folds , many 2p dont fold.
H3: Cbet flop imho. Yes he folds a lot, but u dont induce many bluffs from this type or lighter calls from this type of guy so just bet. He is calling with all PPs. U can take a bf/bf/xf line. As played river is close. Once he checks back turn he is not bluffing river. If he cant bet thinly with Worse Ax then it is a fold. It is going to be 22 or 55 a lot. But with that sizing calling is ok.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:13 AM   #1427
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

Thx!

Quote:
Originally Posted by baohoa View Post
H1: looks ok. That can be a blockbet from Kx or a vbet with a worse Ax.
IDK. At least it's close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baohoa View Post
H2: raise more ott and shove river for value. Qx never folds , many 2p dont fold.
Should have raised more OTT really but what worse hands can call a shove OTR? His line is strange but somehow strong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by baohoa View Post
H3: Cbet flop imho. Yes he folds a lot, but u dont induce many bluffs from this type or lighter calls from this type of guy so just bet. He is calling with all PPs. U can take a bf/bf/xf line. As played river is close. Once he checks back turn he is not bluffing river. If he cant bet thinly with Worse Ax then it is a fold. It is going to be 22 or 55 a lot. But with that sizing calling is ok.
I often just check (instead of c-betting) on safe boards w/ TPMK vs nits. Is it a (possible) leak? Should I do this only IP?

BTW OTR I bet not villain.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:22 PM   #1428
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

Another (actually even more ) awful day.

Hand #1:
Against a real aggrodonk w/ very high postflop AFq (80% OTR). I had seen him (bluff) raise/fold OTF before.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
Hero ($16.51)
BB ($25.12)
UTG ($16)
CO ($15.91)
BTN ($15.44)

Dealt to Hero A A

fold, CO calls $0.16, fold, Hero raises to $0.80, fold, CO calls $0.64

FLOP ($1.76) 8 2 J

Hero bets $1.26, CO raises to $2.52, Hero calls $1.26

TURN ($6.80) 8 2 J 5

Hero checks, CO bets $2.16, Hero calls $2.16

RIVER ($11.12) 8 2 J 5 T

Hero checks, CO bets $10.43 (AI), Hero calls $10.43

CO shows Q 9
(Pre 16%, Flop 18.7%, Turn 9.1%)

Hero shows A A
(Pre 84%, Flop 81.3%, Turn 90.9%)

CO wins $30.54


Hand #2:
Against a somehow fishy (a bit too loose and postflop passive) player.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
SB ($16)
BB ($16.24)
UTG ($16.72)
Hero ($17.07)
CO ($16)
BTN ($17.24)

Dealt to Hero A 4

fold, Hero raises to $0.56, CO calls $0.56, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($1.36) 6 Q 6

Hero bets $0.78, CO calls $0.78

TURN ($2.92) 6 Q 6 4

Hero bets $2.09, CO calls $2.09

RIVER ($7.10) 6 Q 6 4 K

Hero checks, CO checks

Hero shows A 4
(Pre 55%, Flop 67.3%, Turn 68.2%)

CO shows 8 9
(Pre 45%, Flop 32.7%, Turn 31.8%)

CO wins $6.78


Hand #3:
Against a tight, reggish, postflop not too aggro player.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
Hero ($16)
BB ($16)
UTG ($28.14)
UTG+1 ($16.56)
CO ($16.56)
BTN ($14.17)

Dealt to Hero A J

fold, fold, CO raises to $0.48, fold, Hero calls $0.40, fold

FLOP ($1.12) J A 5

Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

TURN ($2.72) J A 5 6

Hero checks, CO checks

RIVER ($2.72) J A 5 6 9

Hero checks, CO bets $1.44, Hero folds

CO wins $2.60
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:49 PM   #1429
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

Quote:
Originally Posted by furkae View Post
Thx!



IDK. At least it's close.



Should have raised more OTT really but what worse hands can call a shove OTR? His line is strange but somehow strong...



I often just check (instead of c-betting) on safe boards w/ TPMK vs nits. Is it a (possible) leak? Should I do this only IP?

BTW OTR I bet not villain.
Why check?

The thing is that when u check, as when u bet, u need to have a reason.
With tptk when u check it is bc:

Villain never calls with worse and

Villain will call lighter on later streets if u check

Or

Villain's bluffing range is wider than his calling range

Basically u want them to make mistakes of some sort. If they dont, and u have no benefits in checking, then it is better to bet and take down the pot, collect dead money, creating some image,plus improving ur redline...by checking u just let them check back their sdv and play their poor equity perfectly. it is not that we are afraid of being two outered, but if they never put any more money without sucking out, then it is better not to let them suck out.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:01 AM   #1430
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

Quote:
Originally Posted by baohoa View Post
Why check?

The thing is that when u check, as when u bet, u need to have a reason.
With tptk when u check it is bc:

Villain never calls with worse and

Villain will call lighter on later streets if u check

Or

Villain's bluffing range is wider than his calling range

Basically u want them to make mistakes of some sort. If they dont, and u have no benefits in checking, then it is better to bet and take down the pot, collect dead money, creating some image,plus improving ur redline...by checking u just let them check back their sdv and play their poor equity perfectly. it is not that we are afraid of being two outered, but if they never put any more money without sucking out, then it is better not to let them suck out.
I check to let the nit bet w/ worse. I think his range is full of small/middle PP's and there's some (we don't know how much) chance he tries to take down the pot by betting. If we bet we may make fold those hands. I would have taken the x/c, x/c, x/f or x/c, x, b(/f) or x, b/f, b/f lines.

Doesn't it make sense against him on this board?
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:42 AM   #1431
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

then you are answering to yourself .

looks good, only thing: I wouldn't take a double xc line vs. a nit. they usually stab once, but not twice.
also it is not bad to put yourself in the position of being called lightly by nits here rather then bet into, bc nits tend not to bluff too much. that means cbetting a ton if u think they fold too much, so they are forced to adjust or just let you run over them the times u have air.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:51 AM   #1432
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

AA hand: looks ok vs. this villain. his bet sizing it's a bit suspicious though, looks like rivered 2p a lot

A4 hand: well, here I dont mind xf otf if he is very passive. the thing is that he doesn't call with worse and doesn't bet either. also we only have 1 over an potentially only Qx to barrell again. once u cbet, turn is a bit awkard bc now, why are we betting? it is not value (well maybe he might still call w A high), and a meh bluff. This doubt also make me wonder if that sizing is good. at this point I still bet otr to make him fold any PP lower than Qx.

Ajs: I would raise otf, especially if he is not aggro and chances he double barrells without a hand are slim. if he has a hand he is probably not folding, so flatting doesn't get any more value ott

Last edited by baohoa; 09-14-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:56 PM   #1433
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

^^^ Thx again!

A4: I bet turn to make him fold all his PP's and better Ax and anything else .

AJs: Yeah, I also thought I should have raised OTF.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:26 PM   #1434
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

A4: yeah, but depending on how sticky he is and passive when checked to, I think xf otf is fine. simply bc he doesnt fold PPs otf and we have very few cards to barrell ott, and poor equity (basically 3 real outs). plus if he is passive he is not betting without a pair.
in fact think about all the possible turns and your action

AJ: consider donking as well imho, depending on his cbet and wtsd
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:01 PM   #1435
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

BE session. Flop c-bet: 26,3%, Flop c-bet success: 20%.

Hand #1:
Against a LAG.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
Hero ($16)
BB ($16.32)
UTG ($23.12)
CO ($26.80)
BTN ($16.16)

Dealt to Hero A J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.48, BB calls $0.32

FLOP ($0.96) A 8 Q

Hero checks, BB bets $0.48, Hero calls $0.48

TURN ($1.92) A 8 Q 9

Hero checks, BB checks

RIVER ($1.92) A 8 Q 9 K

Hero checks, BB bets $0.96, Hero calls $0.96

Hero shows A J
(Pre 64%, Flop 94.4%, Turn 84.1%)

BB shows 7 T
(Pre 36%, Flop 5.6%, Turn 15.9%)

Hero wins $3.67


Hand #2:
CO is a LAG, BTN is a LAG-fish (postflop passive).

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
SB ($6.59)
BB ($16.35)
Hero ($16.24)
UTG+1 ($16)
CO ($17.76)
BTN ($24.47)

UTG+1 posts $0.16

Dealt to Hero Q A

Hero raises to $0.64, fold, CO calls $0.64, BTN calls $0.64, fold, fold

FLOP ($2.32) 4 8 2

Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

TURN ($2.32) 4 8 2 6

Hero checks, CO bets $1.78, BTN folds, Hero folds

CO wins $2.22


Hand #3:
MP was unknown (he's just posted), BTN was a reg and BB was taggish too.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
SB ($16.44)
BB ($16)
Hero ($16.59)
UTG+1 ($12.80)
CO ($20.97)
BTN ($16)

UTG+1 posts $0.16

Dealt to Hero T T

Hero raises to $0.64, UTG+1 calls $0.48, fold, BTN calls $0.64, fold, BB calls $0.48

FLOP ($2.64) 8 4 Q

BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.60, BTN folds, BB calls $1.60, Hero folds

TURN ($5.84) 8 4 Q T

BB checks, UTG+1 checks

RIVER ($5.84) 8 4 Q T 6

BB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.96, BB calls $0.96

BB shows 5 6
(Pre 42%, Flop 35.6%, Turn 22.7%)

UTG+1 shows A J
(Pre 58%, Flop 64.4%, Turn 77.3%)

BB wins $7.41
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:25 PM   #1436
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

Another BE (small loosing) session. My c-bet% is still very low...

Hand #1:
Villain was loose/passive fish pre, postflop more aggro. It's an easy x/f OTF, is it?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
Hero ($17.53)
BB ($6.24)
UTG ($16)
UTG+1 ($16)
CO ($17.54)
BTN ($3.36)

Dealt to Hero 5 5

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.48, BB calls $0.32

FLOP ($0.96) K Q 7

Hero checks, BB bets $0.32, Hero folds

BB wins $0.92


Hand #2:
Villain is an unknown but laggy play.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
SB ($13.08)
Hero ($16)
UTG ($18.59)
UTG+1 ($17.72)
CO ($16)
BTN ($35.46)

Dealt to Hero K A

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.48, Hero raises to $1.44, SB calls $0.96

FLOP ($2.88) J Q 4

SB checks, Hero checks

TURN ($2.88) J Q 4 4

SB bets $1.37, Hero folds

SB wins $2.75
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:34 PM   #1437
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

HH1 I bet flop coz I have a spade, if he is pretty loose, like a loose fish he will fold enough total trash that missed here and we have a spade to back us up for like 30% equity

HH2 I bet flop here too. It does hit their flatting range somewhat but you say he is LAGy so he can probly flat wider than average plus we have a nice amount of equity against a fairly strong range, in the 40% region, so cbetting should be automatically +EV as long as you dont donk off tons on later streets.

as played I might call twice after checking back because even though you rep a piece with that line, I think a LAG will try and take you off that piece by barreling a lot.

stuff like 89s/T9s/AT/KT/K9s etc
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Old 09-18-2012, 01:20 AM   #1438
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

Thx!

I just hate betting once and x/f'ing OTT. I now have 15k hands at NL16. I'll post my graph and some of my stats later. They both are pretty ridiculous.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:30 AM   #1439
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

ye it's fine to XF ott, dont worry about it lol. I used to be the exact same
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:03 PM   #1440
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Re: The „Leffe” challenge: flatten the red line

Finally a short but winning session. NL16 graph:



EDIT: I'm also running 5BI under EV...

I did c-bet more with moderate success.


Hand #1:
Against a fish who min opened a lot and had a 0/4 fold to c-bet stat.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
SB ($24.23)
Hero ($23.12)
UTG ($8.20)
CO ($37.80)
BTN ($13.07)

Dealt to Hero 7 A

fold, CO raises to $0.32, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.12, CO calls $0.80

FLOP ($2.32) 2 8 7

Hero bets $1.33, CO calls $1.33

TURN ($4.98) 2 8 7 Q

Hero bets $2.85, CO folds

Hero shows 7 A

Hero wins $4.76


Hand #2:
Against an unknown laggy player who had an aggro postflop image too. I first wanted to switch to x/c mode, but finally decided to c-bet...

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
Hero ($25.07)
BB ($22.93)
CO ($16.24)
BTN ($16)

Dealt to Hero J A

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.48, BB calls $0.32

FLOP ($0.96) 2 J 9

Hero bets $0.69, BB raises to $1.68, Hero folds

BB wins $2.23


Hand #3:
Against a nit (SB) and an unknown (but somehow fishy) player.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.16(BB) Replayer
SB ($20.51)
BB ($12.21)
Hero ($24.27)
UTG+1 ($21.59)
CO ($16)
BTN ($16)

Dealt to Hero T A

Hero raises to $0.56, fold, fold, fold, SB calls $0.48, BB calls $0.40

FLOP ($1.68) K J 2

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.20, SB folds, BB folds

Hero shows T A

Hero wins $1.60

Last edited by furkae; 09-18-2012 at 04:05 PM. Reason: Running 5BI under EV
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