Ugh, lost $350-400 tonight playing on bovada, mostly playing PLO and stud8. Ran poorly (nut str8 + flush redraw loses to top set; 8754ds < 55xx on 652 in 3bet pot when no one should ever have a set; A753dddd bricks out in stud8 for big pot), but I also didn't play well b/c of tiredness and lack of focus. I forced action in some spots because mentally I think I was trying to get unstuck as quickly as possible, which for some reason I find myself doing online often but almost never do anymore live (fortunately!). I should have never fired up the virtual felt in the first place though as I began playing with the knowledge that I was tired and that I was mainly playing out of boredom. I need to hold myself to a higher standard in online play. I think sometimes I let myself gamble too much b/c the $ is so meaningless relative to the live stakes I play, but that's lame; gotta develop a better mindset and take every hand of poker I play seriously. Otherwise, I'm wasting my time.

..and just got all of that bovada $ back and then some in a +$430 5-10 stud8 session over the last 2.5 hours. Ran pretty hot but I also feel like I'm starting to understand this game at a high level. Played much better today than I played last night; the benefits of 10.5 hours of quality sleep.

Biggest pot won:




Fun times.

Curious to know more about bovada, is it possible for people to make a (decent) living on that website or should good internet players in the U.S auto transition to live/move abroad? Did you ever consider moving abroad?

There's quite a few players on 2+2 that make a decent living playing on Bovada.

Subbed. I'm also learning mixed game, but struggling with Stud8. Any tips? I'm comfortable with PLO and 2-7 TD, have background in live NLH. Do your hold-em instincts ever cause you problems at certain spots in Stud?

Just had a rough 5-10 PLO session after taking the day off from live poker yesterday. Ran atrociously and may have misplayed a hand or two, but I'm generally content with my play. My final hand, with a $1650ish stack, I bet $110 into $160 on a Q65dd flop with QQ95dd (queen hi diamonds) from the BB into three other players, tough player who'd been godmoding with a $10k stack pots it, the two other players fold, we get all the $ in and decide to run it twice..and I promptly get scooped by K874dd (king hi diamonds) (actually a slight favorite against my hand). Lost $3340 for session but I'm taking the big loss pretty well mentally. I'm trying to focus as much of my attention as possible on the quality of my decision-making rather than my results.

I think it's possible but very difficult to make a living on bovada, and almost certainly not worth the effort for anyone who has solid live poker options available. There's an obvious major problem of effectively no rakeback. Further, way moreso than pre-BF, transaction costs can eat heavily into your bottom line, i.e. fees assessed with deposits and withdrawals. While the action is quite soft and plentiful at the stakes I play (mainly 5-10 stud8, $.50/$1 PLO, and $55 hu sngs), I'm probably making $15/hr at best when I play those stakes. I've heard action is soft at the larger stakes, and I do think it's possible to make six figures on the site, but for now I'm trying to stick to games I'm "rolled for" wrt my online roll (using an aggressive BRM strategy). I would never be comfortable having more than $5k on the site at any given time after having had my $10k FTP balance frozen for three years (my peak balance has been $3k and I'm currently a few hundo below that).

The main reason I play on bovada is to keep my live game sharp and to develop my skills in the games in which I'm not getting a lot of live experience. I'd guess that all of my bovada experience has boosted my live hourly by at least a few dollars over the last year, if not more. I've found having played a lot of headsup nl, even turbo hu sngs, especially helpful in taking optimal lines postflop in live deep-stacked nl any-handed.

I briefly considered moving abroad to play online, before realizing I've had a good thing going with live poker that I can't justify abandoning. No need to uproot my life for speculative profit when I've heard online games are tougher than ever and when I've been consistently crushing live poker.

Thanks for the sub! My hold'em experience hasn't felt like a hindrance in stud8, at least not on a conscious level; I think it's best to perceive it as an entirely different game which exists on its own terms, a mindset which I'd also recommend players with a lot of nl experience adopt towards PLO. I'm a little reluctant to give tips because imo stud8 is a very little understood game relative to other, more popular games and I'd like to keep it that way, but some little ones:

don't overvalue hands like 752 that as of third street have little equity towards winning the high portion of the pot, don't overvalue three low cards that contain an 8 (especially with an 8 showing); often these hands aren't even playable, don't overvalue three flushes (especially if they contain one or less low card), an ace upcard is very powerful and in certain lineups you can apply a lot of pressure on third street and with an ace or low fourth street that opponents will respect, w/o experience I'd probably just fold split 9s-Qs in most situations as your hand is often face-up, is already vulnerable against a good low hand, and it's disastrous for you when you're up against a bigger pair.

Stud8 is very interesting to me in that it's an especially contextual game where slight variables (including many that get overlooked by the majority of players) can make a significant difference in how you should play your hand.

At least you can run it twice now!

Indeed--it's been pretty great for action (in PLO anyways, haven't been seeing it as much in nl).

Just left what I'm pretty certain was the most epic session I've ever played over my at least 6000 hours played so far of live cash game poker.

The game was 5-10 PLO, and included the following:
-biggest pot I've ever seen at a table at which I'm occupying a seat ($15k)
-most $ on a table at which I'm occupying a seat ($35k)
-more $3k+ pots than I've ever seen in a session (at least twenty)
-probably the biggest fold I've ever made

Re: that last detail, here's the hand: I raise Ad5dAh7h utg to $30 ($3750 stack), four players call, including the blinds.

Flop ($150) AcKd3d

The dream flop. I bet $110, tough player referenced in above post who's been godmoding again raises to $375 next to act ($6k stack), it gets folded back to me.

Here's what I know when this player raises: He knows I'm never cbetting into this many players without a very strong hand, especially when the game has been playing especially wild; I'm unlikely to be betting with even a bare broadway wrap. I have the nut flush draw, so that's eliminated from his range. I think he's very aware of the possibility that I have a set of aces. I had been pretty card dead the previous couple of hours before this hand and as soon as I raised from EP then led the flop I'm pretty sure everyone thought a set of aces was a likely candidate for my hand. If he has a bare set of kings, I think he's likely to be raise/folding given all of these dynamics. I also was pretty sure he would think if I flatted that I was unlikely to have top set. I was close to 100% sure villain's range was a set of kings or a broadway wrap with worse diamonds, with a small possibility of AKxx (and even then probably not a bare AK)

Given all of the above, I decided my best chance at winning a huge pot was to flat and then check any blank card or non-diamond broadway card with the intention of check-raising, while leading 50-55% pot or so with any turned flush hoping to get a set of kings or worse flush to call.

Turn ($900) 9h

The exact kind of card I was hoping would roll off. I check. Villain shocks me by checking behind.

River ($900) Kh

At this point I felt like a check was mandatory. I check trying to induce a bluff from a missed combo draw (which seemed likely when villain checked behind turn) or, alternatively, attempt to get value from AK. Villain surprises me again by betting a mere $100. I raise to $525. About half a minute goes by and Villain reraises, potting it to over $2000. I immediately feel sick to my stomach, tank for a good minute, show my hand hoping to get some kind of reaction, and end up folding. As soon as the king rolled off, I thought I had to prepare myself mentally for the possibility of quads and actually planned on just check-calling a pot sized bet or near pot-sized bet. The 3bet given my previous thought process led me to think quads was too big a part of villain's range to justify calling.

Villain admitted later away from the table he had quads and in fact subtly flashed a king as he was mucking in a way that was designed to show only me (we're friends).

Despite that hand, I still booked a strong winner: +$2240, over 12 hours. Could have been +$5k pretty easily, but so it goes; I generally ran pretty well outside of the crazy hand, so I can't complain too much. I'm very proud of myself for keeping my composure after the cooler/hero fold and not letting it affect my play. Also proud that I braved the storm of being utterly card dead/breakeven for the first 4.5 hours of the session and keeping patient until I started getting some hands.

Games have been crazy lately, much bigger and wilder than they've been the last two years, and I doubt this 5-10 PLO era will last much longer, but hoping that it does and I run hot.

Btw, I wasn't planning on doing much session-by-session updating in this PGC, but so far I haven't been able to help myself. Planning to redirect my focus itt towards crushing life while incidentally also crushing poker.

Great thread. Needs chip porn though to be truly epic.

Thanks, Doc, and good to see you in here. You remember me from our LATB table? Rewatched a bunch of hands from it the other day as I prepare to go on again in a few weeks (and to remember how to play nl lol); fun times! Probably not going to post any chip porn, for mental game reasons; I don't like the implicit idea of perceiving huge stacks as out of the ordinary (even when they are).

Very sick read on the quad kings!!!

I love PLO and wish there were PLO live games in the Bay Area, closest consistent PLO game in my area is 2 hours away

Thanks, DGI! I'm always surprised PLO isn't more popular on the west coast. It seems to have taken hold the strongest in the Midwest and South, for reasons I don't understand. I'm hoping to be able to play some in LA during late Jan-early Feb.

Finally had a day off from live poker today after a whirlwind Wednesday-Saturday of insane 5-10 PLO action. The games were so amazing and went so late into the night (average break time 6 am) that I ended up playing a normal week's amount of hours (38) over just those four nights. I've spent today mostly enjoying some much needed rest and relaxation, conveniently coinciding with the game finally not running today. I did play some on bovada tonight and won $80 over 45 mins of $.50/$1 PLO and $225 over 2 hours of 5-10 stud8.

Ultimately, the weekend was pretty disappointing results-wise; I lost a combined $1.3k after Thursday's $2200 win. Friday's session was notable in that something occurred which hasn't happened to me in a long time: I lost two separate buyins the first 40 minutes of the session. Fortunately, I was able to run my last buyin up before the game broke, finishing a small loser instead of a huge one. For the most part, I chalk this weekend's disappointing results to being card dead and landing in extremely few strong value spots while also showing up many times with a strong second best hand. That being said, I definitely misplayed a couple of hands as well, I think mostly caused by impatience, and I am going to push myself harder to play my A game as much as possible.

I felt progressively off mentally throughout the weekend, the standard toll caused by playing in intense games over long hours combined with a lack of balance. It didn't seem to affect my play much, but it did make me feel pretty absent mentally away from the table. I was relieved the 5-10 PLO game didn't get off today, as I really felt like I needed some rest and time away from the live felt and am not sure what I would have done if faced with the temptation of the game running.

So, re: all things non-poker, so far I've had a disappointing 2015. I've been working out every other day or close to every other day, but I think I could be doing more on that end, as so far all I've done is continue to run 2.5 miles on the treadmill. Ideally, I'd like to start doing a small amount of lifting and possibly other cardio. I've been eating well so far but would like to get more knowledgeable about nutrition.

On the self-education front, I've been reading, but I would like to be reading even more. Finished The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday today and I found it well worth reading. It's basically an exploration and espousal of stoic philosophy. That philosophy basically boils down to: Roll with life's punches; focus on controlling what you can control while accepting and responding well to what you can't control. A good friend of mine pointed out that stoicism is in many ways the western counterpart to buddhism and I'm inclined to agree. I find myself having strongly stoic leanings.

Some books on my radar that I'd like to read soon: The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, something by Seth Godin, 4 Hour Body by Tim Ferriss, Lori Greiner's book, volume 4 of Knausgaard's My Struggle" series whenever that volume gets released in English translation. I'm also contemplating rereading The Art of Learning, discussed previously itt.

On the dating front, I sent a couple messages over the last week on okcupid; no responses. So far, I've been very selective on the site and have only messaged girls who are probably in the top 20% of female users in town, so I may need to expand beyond that if I'm desperate for results (which I'm not sure I am just yet). A couple of weeks ago I texted a girl I was dating towards the end of 2014 where things were going well then suddenly weren't basically to ask her "what went wrong" figuring I had nothing to lose. She gave me a thoughtful answer that seemed genuine and made me feel better about it all, basically saying we were too similar personality-wise for her tastes, she's looking for someone who complements her better, and that she also got the sense I wasn't an action-oriented person and that she didn't want to be in the role of being the person who was the driving force to do stuff. Re: that last part, whether I like it or not (and even though I had done all the suggesting for stuff we did on dates), her perception was accurate, at least in a lot of contexts; I am a homebody and don't find myself interested in doing much outside of what interests me (a lot of which can be satisfied at home), which has made dating difficult since I rarely ever "go out" and lack familiarity with the nightlife scene. One of my big challenges in finding a good gf is finding a girl who values an introvert who's interested primarily in stuff that doesn't lend itself easily to social stuff.

I'm hoping to use my two weeks+ in LA in part as an experimental grounds for getting over my approach anxiety with women. If I can't approach women in a city where I don't live and have absolutely nothing to lose, then that's pretty lame.

Took the day off of live poker again yesterday, as no big games were running because everyone was at home watching Ohio State win the National Championship.

Played tonight and finished +$2950 in yet another wild 5-10 PLO game over a 7.5 hour session. Ran great early into the session and was actually +$3800 about 3 hours in. Admittedly, I was disappointed to leave with less profit than my peak profit, which reminds me of a conversation I had with a close poker friend at the WSOP about how we as poker players allow "the narrative" behind a result to mean too much. Specifically, my friend and I were talking about how in a tournament a certain stack size can feel completely different mentally under different contexts. If right as the bubble burst I was a massive chipleader at, say, 175bb but then lost two major flips to fall down to 30bb, I probably have a completely different perception of my 30bb stack then someone who doubled up a 8bb stack to survive the bubble, then doubled up again to 30bb at the same point in the tournament. I suspect the latter player will play the stack going forward much better than the former most of the time. One player is going to be fixated a large % of the time on their massive reversal of fortune and let their perception of bad luck influence their play, while the other player will likely feel as if they're riding a wave of momentum and play more optimistically. Theoretically, how either player arrived at the 30bb stack should be irrelevant apart from the possible exception of metagame image factors, yet such narratives are very difficult to avoid using to perceive our current station.

If today I had been stuck $3k and clawed back to win $3k (a situation which happened a few weeks ago), I would have been ecstatic about the result. Likewise, I'd be very pleased if I had gradually built the profit up little by little over the course of the session. Instead, I was disappointed by the $3k win because early on I was up close to $4k and at this peak the session seemed to have a lot of potential for a megawin (like, +$8k or better) with the two best action players building huge pots almost every hand and getting it in light. My ultimate "meh" attitude towards the +$3k result is illogical. More counter-intuitively, so too would be an attitude of euporia if I arrived at that result under different circumstances. If I have the perfect poker mindset, I should have the same level of contentment over both scenarios, assuming my true hourly playing well in both scenarios is the same and I played equally well in both scenarios. Bottom line, "the narrative" regarding the result matters a lot less than the quality of my decision-making that led to the result, and it's counter-productive to focus more attention on the former than the latter.

This goes to a larger point about expectations generally in poker. I believe they should rarely be indulged. Too often, they obscure what should always be our central focus: again, the quality of our decision-making. For example, I was irritated for a little while last week when my friend the tough reg one outed me with a set of kings after I had flopped a set of aces and the nut flush draw; I saw the flop and anticipated I would elevate my already very welcome +$3k win into a huge win. An expectation of winning a big pot had set in. While this is reasonable as I was a huge favorite, what's not reasonable is getting upset when the vulnerability manifests itself via the one outer. There should be no room for irritation, as the reality of poker is sometimes I'm going to lose even if I am on overwhelming favorite in the hand, and rejecting that reality of poker is an unhealthy mindset. The core of my focus should be on the fact that I played the hand well (which I believe I did) and made a great fold. Under reciprocality terms, I am enjoying a massive edge over other players by having made this big, correct fold and, further, by not letting the horrible luck that occurred affect my play going forward in the session.

Anyways, that's enough philosophizing about poker for now; I feel like I could have expressed that all more clearly but I'm pretty tired. Have sort of been depressed the last few days as I continue to mull my future without any clear answers. I'm content right now with my life as is, but if I wake up a year from now and I've made no major steps towards the long game I'll be disappointed.

excited to have stumbled on this thread, I wasn't aware of it or your old one. Looking fwd to following!

Thanks, bob!

Subbed. Good luck OP!

Great thread...subbed

I struggle with the thoughts that you echoed in post #40. I think it sort of comes with the territory of being a live poker player. I think there are two reasons for this: the long run is very long and the money and since you had the money in your hand at one point, it feels like it was yours. Online, you just have virtual chips.

Have you ever regretted quitting your job and turning pro? While I occasionally think of becoming a pro, it is hard to ever pull the trigger and leave a comfortable job. My job situation is a lot less stressful that what yours was though.

Hey, karamazonk, I can empathise with your mindset, as I believe, many other 2+2ers can. Much of this thinking about poker psychology comes from Tommy Angelo and Jared Tendler, writers for which I have great respect. I'm coming to the conclusion, however, that this psychologising of poker is perhaps misapplied. Are we too often pathologising every aspect of poker thinking which has an emotional element? Since we are not "bots", and never will be, should we measure ourselves against this model of emotionless response? Realistically, can we ever entirely rid ourselves of the "expectation" of winning or losing, and, instead, merely focus on the best strategy? Two books that have changed my thinking in this regard are How we Decide by Jonah Lehrer and Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Both have scientific approaches to how we deal with variance---one based in neuroscience and the other Bayesian economics---and are more pragmatic in their assessment of our "irrational" emotions in this regard. Anyway, I've gained much from your thread already, and I'm merely hoping these thoughts might ease the pain of both running good and running bad.

Just had my biggest win ever: +$6470 over 8.5 hours of play, same crazy 5-10 PLO game.

Session actually started terribly as I got scooped RIT while game was 4 handed holding AA107 (rrfd) against KKJ10 (no rrfd) in a $2k+ pot on a J73r flop (pot was bloated preflop as I was able to get ~$600 of my $1k starting stack in oop). I'm too tired to run the sims right now, but I was probably less than 5% to get scooped there. I was irritated, as this particular villain has been the main catalyst of the game these past few weeks but is running massively above expectation in allin pots against me. Fortunately, I didn't let the irritation affect my play, kept patient, and ran great starting an hour later, winning a big pot with 6543ds on a AJ23 board three way allin on turn then towards the end of the session winning a huge pot with 9875ds check-potting a 853r flop against a guy who's notorious for never folding any kind of equity and holding RIT against A24Q (yeah, these games are good).

Thanks for the love and subs!

Good points re: live poker psychology.

I have no regrets whatsoever about quitting, although occasionally I regret that I haven't been doing more freelance legal work. I developed a reputation as a very strong legal writer/researcher while at the firm and did some freelance work shortly after quitting at $125/hr for professional contacts I built while at the firm. Between enjoying poker so much and traveling, though, I turned down some opportunities to do more work and then stopped seeking such opportunities altogether.

I do think I can open a freelance legal writing/research business at any time, an appealing option as costs would be rather low (web site, Lexis or Westlaw subscription, professional malpractice insurance, etc.) and I would have decent control over my availability and expect some attorney clients immediately, but I've held back mostly because I've found I'm more excited about poker right now and don't have any urgent need for the $. Right now, it's sort of a fallback option for me if I can't come up with anything better, although I do think I would enjoy running that kind of business and it's something I could do for the longterm for sure. I just feel like I don't want to deprive myself of the opportunity now to explore something completely different, like an innovative business venture.

Leaving my job to play poker was risky but was an action I had determined not to take until exhausting all other acceptable job options, having applied for several jobs and not getting any serious bites. I was miserable at my job and knew I had no interest in making it to partner or continuing down a path where I was doing work I didn't enjoy (I had become one of the resident experts in contested foreclosure cases, a horrible fit for my interests and strengths, but we were getting so much of that work it was eating up almost all of my time). I also knew I could do well playing poker and would enjoy the freedom of this lifestyle. Further, my experience at the firm convinced me I'll likely not be happy in a traditional workplace environment, so any potential future employer that would have a problem with my professional gambling probably wouldn't be a place I'd want to work, anyways, making the "stain on resume" issue less of a concern.

Great post, and thank you for the kind words. I'm now getting tired, so I don't think I can give the questions you pose the amount of thought and attention they deserve, but I'll say this: While I agree with you that it's unrealistic to expect an attitude of total indifference towards short-term results, I do think it's productive to push ourselves closer to the "bot" model. I've made a lot of progress towards that end over the last few years and believe I can still make plenty more. I think almost all poker players have plenty of space in the gap between expectations and reality that can be narrowed with some effort.

That being said, I agree that we should also factor into our analysis that some degree of emotional attachment to poker outcomes is unavoidable. If it's not enough to understand how a bot would react and try to adjust our own mindset closer to those lines, then we can always develop other tools to mitigate the effects of emotion. This awareness of emotion can take the shape of taking a 5 min. walk while recognizing tilt arising to preclude sub-optimal play, or, for some people, perhaps it's enough simply to acknowledge the presence of a disturbing emotion. The Buddhist literature I've been reading makes the point that simple awareness of negative emotions goes a long way towards reducing their longevity. In the case of euphoria over a result (which could lead to overconfidence tilt), you can think of all the positive variance required to lead to such a result and appreciate your good fortune while understanding its fickle nature.

Btw, glad you brought up those books re: our perception of negative variance, both very relevant. I've read Fooled by Randomness, and How We Decide is on my bookshelf ready to be read at some point in time. Taleb is one of my favorite contemporary thinkers.

Interesting development: the two biggest action players in the game have conspired to make today's game 10-25, which could spell the beginning of the end of these big local PLO games. The 5-10 game has already basically been 5-10-20, as 60+% of hands get straddled, so 10-25 should be particularly insane as the same people will be straddling to make it 10-25-50. Way too big for me to play, even though I think I could sell action pretty easily to participate. Oh well, happy to play some 2-5 nl if need be (biggest stake here) in advance of my LA trip.

sorry if this has been mentioned already, but where do you play?? the plo games in LA actually play bigger than the ones you currently play btw.

Lol obviously the games are bigger in LA. Do you honestly think he doesn't know that?