I'm still experimenting with this. I know it is profitable. I'm not sure if its more profitable than standard raising pre on these types of tables. But it sure is fun and its really not as high variance as it looks.

+1

A lot of people misunderstand variance on this forum in my perspective. Excited to keep talking strategy ITT.

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Hand 9: Hero spews with good results. Or maybe he is a mad genius.

Lots of V's in this one, a couple I know and a couple I don't however just going by physical attributes and the way they move I could tell that they all have a decent grasp of the game, so i'm just going to put hero's description. (None of them were grinders though except V1.) This is not exactly the table where you can felt someone by valuetowning them with 1 pair.

Hero is a well known grinder in the room. About half the table knows that and the other half is smart enough to be able to tell just by the way I move the chips and the cards.

Hero is in BB with Jc4c

V1 limps in EP V2 raises to 25, V3 V4 V5 call, sb folds, hero calls, V1 calls.

6 to the flop (~150) Flop 852 rainbow. Hero donks 75. Everyone folds. Hero tells everyone he has a flush and shows his cards. (Good table for this).

Summary: Never underestimate the power of an agro image combined with the ATC factor of the blinds. I invested a total of 100 in this hand and came out with 125 profit. Solid ratio. I will double here depending on which of the V's call. This was also a good metagame move on this table which is why I showed. I'd like to have bluffs in my range since I know I won't be bluffing all too much on this table.

Hand 10: Hero gets fancy with AA. He needs to smoke a cigarette afterwards to relax.

Same table as hand 9.

V1 (250) is recfish.

V2 (covers) is a dealer at a different casino. Will nearly never bluff, will hero call, plays fairly loosepassive pre and fairly tight post.

(650) Hero has been playing snugAG for the most part. This is about an hour after hand 9.

V1 opens to 40 UTG+2.

Folds to hero in HJ who flats. V2 raises to 160 from SB. V1 calls. Hero raises to 380. V2 jams, V1 calls, hero calls.

V2 shows KK. Hero shows AA

Flop 3s 7s.......Ks.

Table oohs and ahhs. Hero is not happy.

Turn 3s 7s Ks...... As! The table goes wild! Instant adrenaline rush! NO SPADE!

River bricks. V1 shows QQ with no spade.

BBV is -------> that way

Summary: I don't think this hand is all too interesting, but it made a hell of a racket at 1 in the morning. The only interesting part of the hand is my flat of the AA. I didn't want to blow the fish off of his 99-QQ, I bluff raised him off of a pocket pair a few hands back with a flush draw and told him I had a set. Plus there was a guy on the button with 300 who knew how to leverage his short stack. Most of the time I will 3! AA, I was hoping to catch someone else making this a low SPR pot. AA isn't a great hand multiway UNLESS the SPR is low.

Hand 11: Physical appearance, the power of being new to a table, and prime bluffing position (OOP lul).

Hero (500): got to the table 2 hands ago, I am in EP. No Image.

Villain (500): Looks like he knows what he's doing. Headphones, ~35 years old or so, has that air of confidence that guys who know how to play have.

Hero has AQo in EP

Hero raises to 25, villain calls, BB calls.

Flop K 8 4 rainbow (~75)

Checks to villain who bets 35, hero calls.

Turn Kh 8 4 3h ~ 140

Hero checks, villain bets 55.

River K 8 4 3 9 ~ 250

Hero bets 95 Villain tank folds

Summary: What do I rep here? I rep a fishy set or barely K9. What can villain call me with? With no reads to go on, he is going to have a tough time calling with one pair. His range is mostly 1 pair hands and bluffs. The flop is so dry that I can only be slow playing something or peeling a card with a pocket pair. When I donk the river, my range doesn't have too many bluffs, only badly played sets. And his range has bluffs and weak 1 pair hands. I was banking on being new to the table and this guy being at least semi decent to take this hand down.

I'd probably lay it down to an unknown if I were in his spot with a hand like KJs KQs A8s (though I don't think I would have bet the turn with any of those hands).

I'm in for this underappreciated thread. Gonna start playing down there in august so hopefully I can gain some info from this. Any reasons other than distance why you don't play at Hardrock? I heard the Isle is nice and i'm looking forward to playing there. GL dude

90% of the reason I don't play at hardrock is distance. The isle is 15-20 min away, hardrock is 25-30.

The other 10% comes from the fact that I just have a better time at the isle. Friendlier player pool, and pokerwise at the Isle I can play a bit more LAG (which is a lot more fun). I've probably only logged 30-40 hours at the rock on 2-5, and it seems that the most profitable style of play there is just basic TAG (or maniac. But I don't have the roll to handle maniac variance). My sample size isn't too big though. Plus, the isle is a nicer room and rock is 9 handed tables. I'm more of a fan of 10 since 1 or 2 people are always walking anyway.

Hit me up when you get around.

Exploitable Discussion topic #2: Open limping and overlimping!

Edit: I started writing stuff about this topic, but after I got a few paragraphs in, I realized that the amount of stuff I'd have to write to define what I think are the right times to do this and the right table types and player types to play against with it would take about 3 chapters in a book. I'll leave what I wrote, but it is VERY far from complete and if I decide I want to write a book one day, i'll come back to it.

__________________________________________________ _____________

As opposed to the 'small standard raise' (post 48) which uses exploitable play post-flop, limping and overlimping uses exploitable play pre-flop.

Lets look at this from the opposite perspective to see when limping and overlimping are better than raising.

Why do we raise preflop?
a) When we have a value hand
b) When we don't have the best hand, but we can represent the best range of hands

Raising a consistent amount is crucial in games with good players. You want your 6d8d from the cutoff to look the same as your AA from the cutoff.

What if we can't raise for either of these reasons but we still have a hand that we want to play?

Once we get in to a game with players who aren't going to exploit us, we can change it up a bit to exploit their lack of knowledge. If I have an aggressive image on a table and I see that the table is wizening up, I might not raise my As5s on the button over a bunch of limps. My image will allow me to have no problem getting stacks in by the river if I hit my monster. Likewise, I have no problem getting away from A high flops, or bluffing a couple streets vs. the right player.

Hand 12: Hero is all like ffffuuuuuu

Villain sat down at the table a couple hands ago, I know I've played with him before, don't remember much else. He was talking to a PLO reg and seemed like a friendly non-gambly type of guy.

7 Handed
Villain (400) MP
Hero (83475) EP

Hero raises to 25 with K10
Villain calls

Flop As 4s 5c (~50)

Hero bets 35, Villain raises to 75, Hero 3! to 175, Villain folds AcQc face up. Hero says good fold and slides his cards in to the muck.

Summary: Spetwastic! So, my thought process was, "Why is he nearly min-raising me? This board is too wet for a min raise. He must be 'raising for information'. So I can give him some information. Exploiting leaks is fun.

Its good because it worked. (lol)

Batman, Street Poker

Loved that. It hit close to home.

Thread de-rail:

Was playing 5-5 PLO the other day, I bought in for 300 (shortstacking ftw), built it to 500 and came across this spot on the turn.
Villain 1 has 88xx
Villain 2 has KsKh2c7h
Hero has JsQs7d9h

Board is Kc8s4h10s

Villain has the nuts. I have nothing. I put just my hand vs. the KK hand in to an odds calculator and I am a 55/45 favorite.

The way the hand played out, villain bet too small preflop and too small on the flop, (because he wanted to keep people in with his nuts lol).

MHIG on a spade river. What a crazy game. I'm a favorite with nothing vs. the nuts with 1 card to come.

Hand 13: Outleveling the nit and using my image.

This hand occurred on the same table that this occurred on: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...sions-1445406/

There is a ton of history with me and this villain. He buys in for 200 normally and only plays premiums. He is on his 3rd buy in at this point which he did for 500 and is now sitting on 400. (He is not a villain from that thread but I have played many hours with him, he is a reg in the room). He knows i'm a grinder, but also knows i'm a bit wild. He's seen me play from nit to TAG to LAG and this night, I was playing LAG.

Hero has KK in EP.

Hand:

Hero raises to 15 pre, folds to villain in MP who raises to 50, hero raises to 300, villain tanks, says **** it and goes all in for 400.

Clean run out, MHIG vs JJ.

Summary: I know the only way i'm going to get his stack is if I can get it preflop or I have a good run out on the flop. If I raise to 150, he may fold and he may call and fold on the flop. I'm rarely getting his stack unless I cooler him postflop. With this overbet pre... he knows that I know he is tight. So i'm trying to make it look like i'm exploiting him and pushing him off the best hand.

I can see why you go to the Isle.. 80bb with Jacks

Hand 14: Hero gets into a tough spot and deserves it. But all is well.

Table is fairly agro, I've got 3 agro players on my left playing a bit deep, and a few nits on my right.

V1, fairly tight.

(~450) Villain 2 limp 4!ed me after I 3! a 40 open from mp to 120 earlier when I was in the SB in a UTG straddled pot (I folded to the limp 4!, I had 1010). I topped off and he doubled me up a bit after that when I rivered a flush. I called a good sized turn raise on this hand with improper direct odds because I knew I would get the rest of it on the river. Not scared to put money in, playing a wide range of cards pre, I didn't think he knew how to rep hands very well though.

Hero covers, has a tight image, but is seen as not afraid to put money in. I haven't sullied my image yet on this table like I normally do (lol).

Hand:

Hero has A4o in EP and raises to 20
V1 calls, V2 calls in LP.

Flop: 9c6c4d (~60)

Hero bets 45, V1 hems and haws (legitimate) and calls, V2 calls.

Turn 9c6c4d5s (~195)

Hero bets 100, V1 hems and haws and folds, V2 raises to 250, hero tanks and calls.

River 9c6c4d5s6s (~695)

Hero checks V2 goes all in for 150, hero calls. MHIG.

Summary: The ONLY reason I called on the turn was his bet sizing. In a previous hand, I already showed the willingness to call decent sized raises with a FD. When he doesn't jam the turn, it helps me to skew his range towards draws. Yes, 78 got there and is in his range, however my range looks like JJ+ and I know he thinks I'm capable of folding here with one pair. If he has a nutted hand i'd expect him to jam or call behind. I had a read, I went with it, and it worked out.

Over the last month or so I've been opening my game up to incorporate live tells as opposed to just playing the numbers. I did well playing numbers, but it's almost impossible to make some plays that I've been doing without live reads. Zach Elwoods 'Live poker tells' helped, and talking to other players has helped a bit too.

And by the way... A4o... fold pre, yaddayaddayadda.

Hand 15: Hero applies pressure.

Tight table except Villain, the guy to my left. During this hand, the guy receives his first card and says 'well that one's good'; he gets his second card and says 'that one's good too.' Older guy who recently doubled by playing ATC, then lost a hand with trips on a flush runout with ATC (not blinds. He had 49o or something).

Hero is TAG.
Hero is button with Ah8c
Villain is SB.

Effective stacks are 700

1 call, hero raises to 20, V raises to 40, only hero calls.

Flop: 6d7dJh (~85)

Villain says 'Just the two of us? Ok I check'.

Hero bets 45 V calls

Turn: 6d7dJhKh (~175)

Villain leads 100, hero calls

River 6d7dJhKh8h (375)

Villain bets 100, Hero raises to 300......

Summary: About 15-20 hands prior, villain gave the same line on the turn when he hit his 2 pair with 7-10, but the board was 7d8d9h10d. He says 'just the two of us, OK I check.'
I know his speech means weakness and he wants to get to showdown, so when he checks I try to take the pot down on the flop. My bet sizing was crap, I should have potted it.

On the turn, I decide that I can still win this hand on the river because I know he is weak. At this point in the hand, I have him on AK that hit, and AQ that bet the scare card and that's pretty much it. If he would have flopped the D draw, overpair, or tpgk, he would have led, plus I have the Ah, so his heart draw prospects are nearly nil. I'm planning on taking this pot down on the river. River comes in, he bets 100, and I have my second fumble in this hand where I don't put enough chips in. I raise to 300, I should know that i'm not pushing this guy off his whole range in that pot with a 200 raise. In his mind, the chance that I have busted diamonds is too great. His range was capped at 1 pair and fishbluffs, I thought I could rep a ton of hands that go for value there, but his calling station-esque tendencies and my bad bet sizing on the flop and river screwed the pooch for me.

On to the next.

After he leads out for the 100 on the turn you know he hit that king. People who use that line "just the two of us" are probably the same people who never put anybody on a backdoor flush draw so i think it's too hard to rep that flush on the river especially since you lead out on the flop.

I don't think the small bet on the flop is that bad but i'm folding the turn cuz im nitty

Agreed folding the turn is pretty standard here, but at that point I saw 275 in the pot and I hate to give up if there's a fancy way to make money. I knew he was capped at 1 pair on a wet texture and figured I had a good shot at taking it down. During the hand, I just didn't realize how much of my range he will see missed diamonds as.

You mean he won't stack if an over hits on any of the streets postflop and it's likely to hit if he has something like JJ? You may be onto something...

P.S. hate those $200 guys why don't they play $1/$2? is he also over 65 and always angry? :P

GL with the PG&C SunChips!

-subbed-

Here's a hand I played at Seminole Hollywood a couple months ago. 2-5 game. V and hero each have about $800. I've been watching V play for a couple hours. He's a twenty-something LAG. Likes to bet the flop strong and bomb the turn. He bought in for about $300 and has bullied a decent win. Hero has standard TAG image, and possibly weak because of my age (60).

Hero is on the button with AJo. V limps UTG, folds to hero who makes it $25, blinds fold and B calls.

Flop is 44J rainbow. V bets $50. Most people with the 4 would check in that situation. Hero thinks about raising and decides a call might get V to feed me more money.

Turn is a 7. V bets $100. Hero runs hands together and calls.

River is a third 4. V shoves $600+. Hero snap calls. V shows Q7. Hero shows larger full house and scoops the pot.

Now, clearly a lot of two card combos could have beaten hero in that hand, but would ANY of them shove the river? This kid worked hard for his money and lost it all in one bonehead move. Also, he was sucked into the triple barrel play at the beginning, because I read his style of play for what it was. Against a different player, I would have raised the flop and the hand would have ended with V losing only $75.

This is a train wreck story, obviously, and it happens to a lot of players who stray from ABC without judging their opponent correctly or presenting the type of image that would help a balls-out move pay off. Also, a read of the board and what Hero might have is crucial. V might have dragged that pot by check raising the flop. And he would have risked a lot less money.

Thanks bip! You could probably write a book on felting people with fancy baller plays.


Almost forgot about this thread... I haven't given this thread much love recently; I've still been putting in my 30-40 hours a week, just haven't had the need to get fancy. The regs at The Isle have adjusted to my LAG game, so unless i'm on a table full of unknowns, I just tighten up and get paid. Because of the adjustments that the regs have made, I've actually been able to use overbets quite often. Quick example:

Hero's second orbit, I know about 3/4 of the players at the table. First orbit I raised pre, c-bet and took it down. That's it. The table is LAG aside from the two players to my left. Both are both nits, so I can potentially have 3 buttons per orbit.

Hero has Ks2s in hijack. 2 limps to hero, hero limps, sb completes, BB checks.

Flop: KQs10 (~25)

Checks through

Turn: K Qs 10 9s (~25)

SB bets 20, MP calls, hero calls

River K Qs 10 9s 3s (~85)

Checks to hero who bets 150, SB calls, MHIG.

Summary: I limped pre which I will do quite often if I can get the button in a multi-way pot with a felter type of hand. There's a ton of stuff I can do in position whether I hit or not. The overbet on the river goes to show just how inelastic some peoples calling ranges are. A lot of 2/5 players would bet 60ish on the river when their flush comes in. If I bet 150 and get called 50% of the time that 60 gets called i'm making extra money. On a board like this, people don't want to get pushed off their chop even though they don't realize how much they are paying to try to get half the pot. If someone leads the river, I think it's a pretty easy raise/fold spot.

A buddy of mine was in town the other day so I sat at a 1-2 table with him. I got involved in a pot with a guy at the table where I shoved 200 in to 70 to try to push him off a chop and he called. (He bet 15, I called, he bet 15, I called, he checked, I bet 200, he called! for a chop!) I guess it was a zeebo spot, there were trips on the board and his hand was face up as being the same as mine.

My girlfriend and I just got kittens and they are walking all over my computer. They put some holes and random letters in this post. I tried to fix it, but if anything is unreadable, that is why.

Happy felting!

By the way...

Last tournament I played, I got 34th in a field of 2000 during the hardrocks $350 deepstack. So, my tourney confidence is up high (very tough field, day 2 had a ton of tourney pros and cash grinders).

The Isle is currently running $75 tournament with 32 day 1 flights, four day 2 flights, and one day 3. I don't like tournaments too much (especially the small buy in ones because the hourly is so low) but I was up almost 900 in 2 hours a few days ago so I decided to go screw around and agro the hell out of a day 1 flight. Chip leader for each flight gets $500. At the beginning of the flight I informed my table 'chip leader or bust!' I binked chip leader for day 1 in a field of 190, played day 2 yesterday, and have an average stack going in to day 3.

50k GTD first place, 250 GTD for 200th place (day 3 will be 200 players).

So, on the 28th, ship me the run good! The field is SO soft... I need to get through 199 players. There's a super deep 2/5 game that plays ULTRALAGTARD that I am underrolled for which I would like to sit in. A nice 1st/2nd finish would roll me for it.

I may sacrifice one of my kittens to the poker gods to bink this. (Just kidding. Unless I had a guarantee that it would work. (just kidding again. (probably.)))

Booked my biggest winning session in my short 10 month career today... +2k. 1.5k was from playing 2-5 PLO8 with a whale and .5k from 2-5 HE. I played my 'S' game today. For those of you who didn't play a ton of arcade games growing up, 'S' is the rank above 'A'. There's this feeling that comes along with 'S' rank play of being in 'the zone'. I've been able to get in the zone for my last couple sessions and it's really shown with the results. My deepstack play is improving every day.

I read this (post #277) the other day and thought it was an awesome example of thinking outside the box. Haven't found a spot for it in the last 30 hours of play since I read it, but it's now in my playbook. Figured i'd share it.

Hand 16: Exploiting underrolled nits by repping nothing but money.

Hero (500) sat down at the table a couple hands ago, first orbit. I know 75% of the table

Villain is an under rolled post-flop-nitty guy sitting on 800

Hero UTG+1 raises to 30 with 88, 4 callers including UTG+2, V in CO, SB, BB.

Flop A Q 3 r (~120)

Checks to V who bets 75, folds to hero who c/r to 200, villain tank folds AK face up.

Summary: I've started looking for spots where taking risky lines can really exploit the leaks that the villains have. I suppose it's actually not super risky considering the maths. This is a spot where I can get a villain to fold 90% of his range. With the way this hand played out, V was near the top of his range but still folded. His flop bet folding range goes from two face cards including a Q, through weak suited aces, to AK. He's calling with A3, AQ, QQ, 33. It's amazing that my FE is greater than 50% which it has to be in order to make this profitable, however some players are so MUBSy that these kinds of plays become profitable.

^ that is how to crush 2/5... same things I see from villains in my casino. Anything less than top two or a set and they just muck it to aggression.

Thanks for posting this hand..

It makes me realize these similar spots although I don't ride the variance train like you..

The flop raise only works with villains who are capable of folding; But after looking at possible combinations and hero's image(LAG), I'm not folding AK in this spot to you. If you have AQ, A3s, or QQ.. Ill take the L.