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Old 02-12-2017, 11:27 PM   #26
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Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

For one he shouldn't be calling A2s pre here imo, but your AA doesn't block A2s that isn't already blocked by the board.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:23 AM   #27
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Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

Not much going on atm, decided to not continue post every hand where I lost 100bb. FK dat

Small little update for you guys: Here's my graph since last week wednesday coaching. Will start my second sessh today. Busy with school + my dealers training for work at casino. I need to support myself without touching my poker rollz .



Points to focus on:
- My river call efficiency (calling way too many rivers (and turns)).
- My fold to 3-bet, it's only 55% which is a leak.
- Folding too much vs flop c-bets, around 43%
- Folding too much vs turn probe bets (55%?) <- lol just found this out yesterday.

Some fun hands:


    Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37639106

    Hero (BTN): $33.10 (132.4 bb)
    SB: $43.86 (175.4 bb)
    BB: $45.10 (180.4 bb)
    UTG: $25 (100 bb)
    MP: $26.32 (105.3 bb)
    CO: $27.40 (109.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with J Q
    3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, SB raises to $1.75, BB folds, Hero calls $1.25

    Flop: ($3.75) Q 3 8 (2 players)
    SB bets $1.79, Hero calls $1.79

    Turn: ($7.33) T (2 players)
    SB bets $5.25, Hero calls $5.25

    River: ($17.83) 4 (2 players)
    SB bets $12.77, Hero calls $12.77

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.


    GG get it in good AA vs KK vs JJ, never holding





      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37639107

      BTN: $5.19 (20.8 bb)
      Hero (SB): $26.59 (106.4 bb)
      BB: $25.80 (103.2 bb)
      UTG: $47.43 (189.7 bb)
      MP: $27.86 (111.4 bb)
      CO: $34.91 (139.6 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with A A
      UTG raises to $0.75, MP folds, CO calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, Hero raises to $4.50, 2 folds, CO raises to $34.91 and is all-in, BTN calls $4.44 and is all-in, Hero calls $22.09 and is all-in

      Flop: ($59.37) 4 8 K (3 players, 3 are all-in)
      Turn: ($59.37) 9 (3 players, 3 are all-in)
      River: ($59.37) 7 (3 players, 3 are all-in)

      Spoiler:



      Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.


      aaaaaaaaand got slightly tilted after that hand .

      P.S. Wait what, turning his flush into bloff? Fancy O_O


        Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37639108

        BTN: $23.99 (96 bb)
        SB: $31.75 (127 bb)
        Hero (BB): $25.35 (101.4 bb)
        UTG: $33.39 (133.6 bb)
        MP: $25 (100 bb)
        CO: $22.11 (88.4 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is BB with 8 8
        UTG raises to $0.75, MP folds, CO calls $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.50

        Flop: ($2.35) T 4 T (3 players)
        Hero checks, UTG bets $0.56, CO folds, Hero calls $0.56

        Turn: ($3.47) 8 (2 players)
        Hero checks, UTG bets $1.25, Hero raises to $5, UTG calls $3.75

        River: ($13.47) T (2 players)
        Hero bets $4.50, UTG raises to $27.08 and is all-in, Hero calls $14.54 and is all-in

        Spoiler:



        Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
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        Old 02-15-2017, 01:20 PM   #28
        Brokenstars
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Avizura View Post

        Points to focus on:
        - My river call efficiency (calling way too many rivers (and turns)).
        - My fold to 3-bet, it's only 55% which is a leak.
        - Folding too much vs flop c-bets, around 43%
        - Folding too much vs turn probe bets (55%?) <- lol just found this out yesterday.
        1. What is your river call efficiency and what do you think is optimal?
        2. What do you a good fold to 3bet is?
        3. How often do you think you should be folding to flop c-bets?
        4. How often do you think you should fold to turn probes?

        Where do you get the information for (1-4) and what in your game are you going to change in order to approach better values?
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        Old 02-15-2017, 02:24 PM   #29
        Avizura
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
        Hey, thanks for thinking with me. I will just start with answering your questions.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
        1. What is your river call efficiency and what do you think is optimal?
        My fold to c-bets are 43/28/21 for each respective street. I don't think folding less on turns and rivers in generalis wrong with this high fold to c-bet. However, I think my calling frequency on the river (possibly turn too?) is still out of whack (even with this high fold to c-bet OTR), and it is a bigger mistake than folding too much on the flop in itself.

        I would like to fold less to c-bets, especially since nowadays regs use a smaller sizing normally and c-bet with a wider range with higher frequency.

        I think anywhere in the ballpark 35-40% for river is optimal. Maybe like 30% for flop and a little bit more on the rivers (as population on 25nl tends to not 3barrel light that often). So that's why I believe folding only 21% OTR, even with my high fold to c-bet on the flop is a way bigger mistake than folding too much OTF.

        This is what I believe and please correct me if you believe I am wrong. I don't really have proof to backup my reasoning. I just used 0.7PSB / (1 POT + 0.7PSB) = 0.41 = 41% <- we have to fold less than 41% to prevent vilain from auto profiting with 0.7 PSB OTR.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
        2. What do you a good fold to 3bet is?
        I actually think 55% is fine, and maybe it's on the high side. I think I should even try to fold less as I move up and as I improve my postflop game theory (assuming I am better than average, which I am clearly not yet).
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
        3. How often do you think you should be folding to flop c-bets?
        As stated above, I think it should be anywhere in the ballpark of 30-35% for flop. Given c-bets average around 2/3 PSB. I am not sure, I just know 43% is too much if we simply use math.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
        4. How often do you think you should fold to turn probes?
        I don't know either. A 400NL reg gave me a free leak finder and just told me that my fold to turn prob is out of whack and too high. I'm not going to tell who for obvious reasons.

        I can agree with this as my fold to turn probe bet is 52% at the moment. If we simply use math, it's way out of whack. Especially since probe bets are usually around 1/2PSB and sometimes even lower.

        As direct answer to your turn prob % question. If say the average sizing for a turn probe bet is 1/2 PSB we should defend atleast 67%. So a good starting point would be fold-to-turn-probe 33%. I guess we are mostly capped when we check flop IP as PFR, but I also guess we can solve this better by occasionally checking really strong hands and/or medium strong hands that are not outdrawn very often. This to prevent vilain from probe betting 1/2PSB and auto profit anytime. In reality it's hard to prevent vilain from auto profiting with probe bets so I think in reality my fold to probe should be around 35%?.

        Thanks for taking the time to ask these questions as it made me think myself more.
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        Old 02-15-2017, 08:12 PM   #30
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        what in your game are you going to change in order to approach better values?
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        Old 02-15-2017, 08:55 PM   #31
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        That's some off table work I have to do and work on my game theory . I guess just starting with 1 minus alpha stuff as baseline and work from there and do off table range work in spots where i know my current leaks are.
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        Old 02-15-2017, 10:46 PM   #32
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        1- alpha is fineish as a baseline but can actually be way off in some spots.

        Basically if we look at a players decision wether to cbet or not on the flop, he is never sat there with a hand that is zero ev.
        So we don't care if he auto profits with a bet, as that shouldn't be enough to convince him to bet 100% of his range (or even close to it), as xback always has EV >0.

        EDIT; so with that in mind, your fold to cbets are actually really low, especially for 25nl tendencies
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        Old 02-16-2017, 05:28 PM   #33
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        you need to fold more to 3-bets, 55% is too low, if you steal pretty wide from the BTN(which you do), it means you're flatting 3-bets with Axs, JQo+, 22+
        I see a lot of bad regs flatting my re-steals with crap like K2s, don't be one of them.

        Also you're folding fine vs flop cbets, you're not supposed to fight that much for pots. OK, flatting IP to float is ok, raising some flops too, but flatting a midpair just to give up later is burning money.

        Don't focus on changing a stat for the sake of it, focus on playing well the hands.
        Another thing: fighting so much for pots in a high rake environment is bad, I used to go in huge reg fights, just to see later that we're both getting crushed by stars. Just fold, or just open a tighter range vs an aggro 3-bettor, you will also increase your volume by a lot if you stop fighting that hard vs regs, since you'll be folding more pre and finding more spots vs fish.

        People underestimate the power of fast folding in ZOOM and are always trying to get those small margins. I usually fold AJs pre vs UTG raises when I'm in the BB, simply because even though it may be +EV to call, margins will be small, rake is high and I'll lose a lot of time in the hand which I could be using to stack more fish.
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        Old 02-16-2017, 07:35 PM   #34
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by PlasticElephant View Post
        1- alpha is fineish as a baseline but can actually be way off in some spots.

        Basically if we look at a players decision wether to cbet or not on the flop, he is never sat there with a hand that is zero ev.
        So we don't care if he auto profits with a bet, as that shouldn't be enough to convince him to bet 100% of his range (or even close to it), as xback always has EV >0.

        EDIT; so with that in mind, your fold to cbets are actually really low, especially for 25nl tendencies
        Hey, thanks for chiming in.

        I am aware 1 minus alpha is debunked.
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        Old 02-17-2017, 02:06 AM   #35
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Rapidesh123 View Post
        you need to fold more to 3-bets, 55% is too low, if you steal pretty wide from the BTN(which you do), it means you're flatting 3-bets with Axs, JQo+, 22+
        I see a lot of bad regs flatting my re-steals with crap like K2s, don't be one of them.

        Also you're folding fine vs flop cbets, you're not supposed to fight that much for pots. OK, flatting IP to float is ok, raising some flops too, but flatting a midpair just to give up later is burning money.

        Don't focus on changing a stat for the sake of it, focus on playing well the hands.
        Another thing: fighting so much for pots in a high rake environment is bad, I used to go in huge reg fights, just to see later that we're both getting crushed by stars. Just fold, or just open a tighter range vs an aggro 3-bettor, you will also increase your volume by a lot if you stop fighting that hard vs regs, since you'll be folding more pre and finding more spots vs fish.

        People underestimate the power of fast folding in ZOOM and are always trying to get those small margins. I usually fold AJs pre vs UTG raises when I'm in the BB, simply because even though it may be +EV to call, margins will be small, rake is high and I'll lose a lot of time in the hand which I could be using to stack more fish.
        F3b of 55% is high btw.
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        Old 02-17-2017, 02:16 AM   #36
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Yeah it's not just that it's debunked, I think it will also lead to you making more mistakes than just thinking about which action has the highest EV basically.

        So if I was looking at how to defend vs a flop cbet, in the absence of PIO, I'd actually just approximate his cbetting range, go through hands in my range and their equity vs his cbet range, consider pot odds, backdoors, likely turn/ river outcomes (EG dry ahi is a much worse flop call vs more aggro barrelers) and decide wether they are plus EV calls or not. I think you'd actually come up with much better strategies this way than with 1-alpha honestly (but obviously pio>>>)

        Also, on an unrelated note, don't ever fold AJs from the BB
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        Old 02-17-2017, 04:28 AM   #37
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Do you think it will be worth it for me to invest into PIOsolver? I had the money to buy pro version and got a good rig.

        I7-4790k OC'ed from 4.0 to 4.8ghz and 16gb ram (will upgrade to 32gb later)
        Not so subtle brag
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        Old 02-17-2017, 06:56 AM   #38
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Avizura View Post
        Not so subtle brag
        Sorry to disappoint but PIO loves cores and threads and an i7 is not the effective way to get them. You can get a nice dual CPU server rig from ebay with 16-20 cores, 36-40 threads for less than you spent on that CPU alone. That would be PIO power

        I'm rocking the i7 too btw, but if I got a higher tier PIO version to run scripts etc I sure wouldn't.
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        Old 02-17-2017, 09:10 AM   #39
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        I will probally get basic version first so it's whatever
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        Old 02-17-2017, 10:29 AM   #40
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Brokenstars View Post
        F3b of 55% is high btw.
        wait, how much F3B should you have?
        Seriously, I've always been between 60-75%, but I open wide vs nits in the blinds, folding a lot, while opening tight and continuing with 50-70% of my range vs crazy 3-bettors.

        Also I respect a lot 3-bets when I open from UTG, maybe it's because I've always played fullring, but when you raise from UTG+2 and get 3-betted by a reg, it's almost always AK+ QQ+, some regs don't even 3-bet AK/QQ.

        Also how much should you call vs someone who is re-stealing 6%(with a 5% 3-bet overall)?
        When you're opening 60% on the button?

        Vs these guys I usually call pre with AQ, AJs, PPs, SCs, I fold KTs/JQs type of hands because they're usually dominated vs that range. Is it fine? for me, it's a good deal if I'm stealing 60% vs a 6% 3-bet. Is this a good idea?

        Last edited by Rapidesh123; 02-17-2017 at 10:34 AM.
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        Old 02-17-2017, 12:17 PM   #41
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        optimal f3b is probably like 46-50%, but I don't focus on stats as I play on anonymous site. That being said, anything > 66% is clearly bad by just simple arithmetic.
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        Old 02-17-2017, 02:51 PM   #42
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Avizura View Post
        Do you think it will be worth it for me to invest into PIOsolver? I had the money to buy pro version and got a good rig.

        I7-4790k OC'ed from 4.0 to 4.8ghz and 16gb ram (will upgrade to 32gb later)
        Not so subtle brag
        Yeah that rig is fine for PIO, I don't even think you need 32gb ram unless you are planning on doing tons of preflop solving.
        I got by with quad i5 and 8gb for ages when it first came out for postflop!

        EDIT; I also ran tons of scripts on 8gb.
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        Old 02-17-2017, 03:24 PM   #43
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Rapidesh123 View Post
        wait, how much F3B should you have?
        Seriously, I've always been between 60-75%, but I open wide vs nits in the blinds, folding a lot, while opening tight and continuing with 50-70% of my range vs crazy 3-bettors.

        Also I respect a lot 3-bets when I open from UTG, maybe it's because I've always played fullring, but when you raise from UTG+2 and get 3-betted by a reg, it's almost always AK+ QQ+, some regs don't even 3-bet AK/QQ.

        Also how much should you call vs someone who is re-stealing 6%(with a 5% 3-bet overall)?
        When you're opening 60% on the button?

        Vs these guys I usually call pre with AQ, AJs, PPs, SCs, I fold KTs/JQs type of hands because they're usually dominated vs that range. Is it fine? for me, it's a good deal if I'm stealing 60% vs a 6% 3-bet. Is this a good idea?
        Is your f3b stat folding to a 3b, or folding to a 3b after raising? the two stats are a lot different
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        Old 02-17-2017, 06:22 PM   #44
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Clanty View Post
        Is your f3b stat folding to a 3b, or folding to a 3b after raising? the two stats are a lot different
        f3b, why are they so different?
        I use f3b overall, but not f3b after raising.

        F3B after raising is 48.73, f3b overall is 72.66
        I was pretty sure they were pretty close, the only difference is that f3b after raising don't account for squeeze pots, which are usually folds pre.
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        Old 02-17-2017, 06:27 PM   #45
        Avizura
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        Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

        Felt like I was doing "OK" today. Last hand got me tilted hard so just insta quit playing. Don't feel like chasing losses lmao.





        Hand where I insanely got tilted and just insta quit the session. No need to chase the loss for me today.

          Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
          Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37641859

          Hero (BTN): $25 (100 bb)
          SB: $62.65 (250.6 bb)
          BB: $25 (100 bb)
          UTG: $34.67 (138.7 bb)
          MP: $32.67 (130.7 bb)
          CO: $23.38 (93.5 bb)

          Preflop: Hero is BTN with 4 5
          UTG raises to $0.75, MP folds, CO calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

          Flop: ($2.60) 3 6 2 (3 players)
          UTG bets $2, CO raises to $5.11, Hero raises to $12.50, UTG folds, CO raises to $22.63 and is all-in, Hero calls $10.13

          Turn: ($49.86) T (2 players, 1 is all-in)
          River: ($49.86) 2 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

          Spoiler:



          Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.








          Spew or cooler?

            Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
            Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37641856

            BTN: $31.41 (125.6 bb)
            SB: $27.49 (110 bb)
            BB: $27.36 (109.4 bb)
            UTG: $32.31 (129.2 bb)
            Hero (MP): $27.04 (108.2 bb)
            CO: $25 (100 bb)

            Preflop: Hero is MP with K K
            UTG raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds, SB raises to $3.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7.20, SB calls $3.95

            Flop: ($15.40) 7 8 J (2 players)
            SB checks, Hero bets $4.70, SB raises to $20.29, Hero calls $15.14 and is all-in

            Turn: ($55.08) 7 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
            River: ($55.08) 4 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

            Spoiler:



            Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.



            Raising here is fine?

              Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
              Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37641857

              Hero (BTN): $39.32 (157.3 bb)
              SB: $36.77 (147.1 bb)
              BB: $19.10 (76.4 bb)
              UTG: $26.75 (107 bb)
              MP: $25.52 (102.1 bb)
              CO: $24.43 (97.7 bb)

              Preflop: Hero is BTN with A 8
              3 folds, Hero raises to $0.58, SB raises to $1.60, BB folds, Hero calls $1.02

              Flop: ($3.45) 3 7 7 (2 players)
              SB bets $2.04, Hero calls $2.04

              Turn: ($7.53) 4 (2 players)
              SB bets $4.46, Hero calls $4.46

              River: ($16.45) J (2 players)
              SB bets $9.74, Hero raises to $31.22 and is all-in, SB folds

              Spoiler:



              Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.



              I guess no one believes me anymore


                Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
                Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37641858

                BTN: $38.88 (155.5 bb)
                SB: $40.91 (163.6 bb)
                BB: $28.77 (115.1 bb)
                UTG: $27.39 (109.6 bb)
                Hero (MP): $29.07 (116.3 bb)
                CO: $33.47 (133.9 bb)

                Preflop: Hero is MP with J 9
                UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.62, CO folds, BTN calls $0.62, 2 folds

                Flop: ($1.59) 7 T T (2 players)
                Hero bets $0.53, BTN calls $0.53

                Turn: ($2.65) 8 (2 players)
                Hero bets $1.92, BTN calls $1.92

                River: ($6.49) K (2 players)
                Hero checks, BTN bets $3.20, Hero raises to $10, BTN calls $6.80

                Spoiler:



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                Old 02-17-2017, 06:34 PM   #46
                Clanty
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                Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Rapidesh123 View Post
                f3b, why are they so different?
                I use f3b overall, but not f3b after raising.

                F3B after raising is 48.73, f3b overall is 72.66
                I was pretty sure they were pretty close, the only difference is that f3b after raising don't account for squeeze pots, which are usually folds pre.
                No, fold to 3b includes spots where you're in the BB and co opens btn 3b's and you fail to cold 4b.
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                Old 02-17-2017, 06:40 PM   #47
                Rapidesh123
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                Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Clanty View Post
                No, fold to 3b includes spots where you're in the BB and co opens btn 3b's and you fail to cold 4b.
                lol, so f3b stat is pretty garbage, right?
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                Old 02-17-2017, 06:45 PM   #48
                Avizura
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                Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Clanty View Post
                No, fold to 3b includes spots where you're in the BB and co opens btn 3b's and you fail to cold 4b.
                I think you are wrong. If not, can you tell me what the stat is in HM2? I can't find it.

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                Old 02-17-2017, 07:12 PM   #49
                Avizura
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                Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

                I just realized I didn't even 3b the KK pre, lmao. Oh well it would have been a cooler anyways.
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                Old 02-17-2017, 07:36 PM   #50
                SalmoTrutta
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                Re: Avi 2k17 - 6max NLHE zoom - Do you want to be a rich man?

                In HEM it's the way it should be. It's just PT4 that is weird as a default.
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