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| Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies. |
05-25-2012, 12:11 PM
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#1
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banned
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 428
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When to just flat with AA preflop?
So an interesting spot came up the other day where I have AA and if I re-raise raise I know everyone will fold and I will just win the preflop bets, but if I flat call I will have to play a pot 3-handed oop...
New table opened 1 hour ago, I have been completely card dead and I don't think I've played a hand yet. I am viewed as a absolute NIT, but I just haven't had a hand/situation to play yet.
Villain is a solid LAG player, he is definitely capable of crushing the game, but he just likes to outplay people too much and thats his downfall, a little too aggressive. So far he has either raised or 3-bet when he is on the button every single time, and everyone just folds to him.
Effective Stacks: $200
Preflop: MP opens for $10, Villain on BTN re-raises to $30, Hero in SB looks at AA...?
Again, I am reading the opening bettor as weak, and I know the villain doesn;t have anything here, If i 4-bet to any amount they will both insta-fold, If I flat call, the oping bettor will think he's priced in and I will have to play a pot 3 handed oop...
So what do you guys do in this spot, and when is it right to just flat with AA preflop?
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05-25-2012, 12:16 PM
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#2
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adept
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,027
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
The ONLY hand I trap with is AA
never trap with kk qq jj ak bc u can be outflopped easily
if the stacks are shallow enough like they are u probably can stack off no matter what the flop is unless its like 10 j q monotone and u dont have the ace
deeper than 100bb u cant really afford to flat
but given the stack sizes u probably wont dump the aces anyway
given the situation i guess you could flat and just check jam any flop
however being OOP a raise is the correct play, i would wait for a better spot to do this with AA for instance is LAG in co open raises to 17 and u can fat OTB sure it will be heads up
a couple of months ago i stacked an old man by flatting his open to 15 in CO and i flat OTB
unlucky bpth the blinds called but i just raised all in after old man bombed a j high flop and then called my all in with KJo lololo
in a nutshell i would only trap if i know its heads up, which in this situation its not
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05-25-2012, 12:21 PM
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#3
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grinder
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 542
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
Not in this spot, raise to 75 and hope one of them ships on you
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05-25-2012, 12:24 PM
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#4
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,605
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
I think I would be tempted to just flat and hope MP isn't weak and 4bets himself, but I'm not sure if that's right. It does suck being OOP and going 3way, but SPR will be like 2 so I'm pretty sure we can happily stack off postflop, but do we risk checking the flop to these guys? Ha, I probably flat, then check/shove flop, but that may be too FPS.
GtoodamntrickyforhisowngoodG
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05-25-2012, 12:26 PM
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#5
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: beantown
Posts: 5,150
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty313
The ONLY hand I trap with is AA
never trap with kk qq jj ak bc u can be outflopped easily
if the stacks are shallow enough like they are u probably can stack off no matter what the flop is unless its like 10 j q monotone and u dont have the ace
deeper than 100bb u cant really afford to flat
but given the stack sizes u probably wont dump the aces anyway
given the situation i guess you could flat and just check jam any flop
however being OOP a raise is the correct play, i would wait for a better spot to do this with AA for instance is LAG in co open raises to 17 and u can fat OTB sure it will be heads up
a couple of months ago i stacked an old man by flatting his open to 15 in CO and i flat OTB
unlucky bpth the blinds called but i just raised all in after old man bombed a j high flop and then called my all in with KJo lololo
in a nutshell i would only trap if i know its heads up, which in this situation its not
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Its actually the other way around.
With AA its better to fast-play since you absolutely crush pretty much every single hand that will get it in against you pre-flop. Trapping with KK is fine.
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05-25-2012, 12:28 PM
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#6
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The Situation
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,018
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
in low stakes nl, you want to bet almost all of your made hands for value, no need to get fancy here.
Raise to 70 and shove flop. You'll be giving V a seemingly good price on seeing a flop where he's dominated and doesn't have the implied odds for a call. You raise to protect your hand but hoping he'll make the mistake and call.
I guess i could see a case where you're heads up against a lag villain and will be OOP post, where you could flat, then c/r his cbet to gain an extra bet. But watch out for FPS at 1/2nl.
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05-25-2012, 12:29 PM
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#7
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Turning Stone
Posts: 14,908
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
This isn't the spot to slowplay AA. For one, unless he thinks you're a fish, flatting here isn't fooling anyone, they know you have a very big hand.
So you may as well re-open the action and try to get all-in pre before the board comes really bad and you lose action. Make it $60.
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05-25-2012, 12:37 PM
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#8
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: beantown
Posts: 5,150
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
I will slowplay (sometimes) against maniacal guys in my game, who will open to like 110 in a 5/10 game with J3 suited.
I want them to stick around post flop, by 3betting I increase the likelihood that they make fewer mistakes.
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05-25-2012, 12:53 PM
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#9
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banned
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: The other side of the world
Posts: 1,128
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
meh, I've never flatted AA in my life. Probably never will...
I suppose I'd consider the flat if I were in position, trying to keep some whale in the hand.
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05-25-2012, 01:10 PM
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#10
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: beantown
Posts: 5,150
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
^ try it sometime. It's not a terrible play... You can flat AA to:
- induce & re-squeeze squeezer
- deception against better players
- induce further mistakes post flop from "aggro-maniacs" when they are less likely to make as big a mistake pre
- project a weaker "percieved range" when playing against TAGish players who will 'barrel' into you if they are pre-flop aggressor.
- when deep its super deceptive... may put you into interesting spots post flop.
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05-25-2012, 01:26 PM
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#11
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masaraksh
^ try it sometime. It's not a terrible play... You can flat AA to:
- induce & re-squeeze squeezer
- deception against better players
- induce further mistakes post flop from "aggro-maniacs" when they are less likely to make as big a mistake pre
- project a weaker "percieved range" when playing against TAGish players who will 'barrel' into you if they are pre-flop aggressor.
- when deep its super deceptive... may put you into interesting spots post flop.
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The problem I have with playing AA "deceptive" is hand ranges. For example in 2/2 people like to call with a lot of hands. Sc, suited 1 gappers, you name it they like it. Now if I just flat in position or even oop and the flop comes 567 I am absolutely clueless how to react vs aggression. If I lead out and they flat and the turn comes an 8,9 or 4. I check fold. And I beat on myself for not 4bettibg preflop.
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05-25-2012, 01:28 PM
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#12
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journeyman
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chicago/Detroit - It's a coin flip.
Posts: 262
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
If it was folded to him and he had raised the btn, i'd flat. - Considering the MP opener, I'd reraise here.
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05-25-2012, 01:29 PM
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#13
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: beantown
Posts: 5,150
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
Sometimes one must fold Ace Ace post-flop.
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05-25-2012, 01:36 PM
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#14
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masaraksh
Sometimes one must fold Ace Ace post-flop.
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Of course but I hope you get my point.
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05-25-2012, 01:41 PM
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#15
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The Situation
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CA and Vegas
Posts: 8,369
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Re: When to just flat with AA preflop?
When we "slowplay" we are balancing in the wrong direction, that is, playing our strong hands weak.
The way to properly balance at this table is to 3bet at a high enough frequency so that they stop viewing your 3bets as AA. Once every two orbits or so is enough.
However, there is only one time I ever slowplay...
There are certain breeds of aggro LLSNL Villains in which an overpair is the stone cold nuts and they will ship or call a ship for 200bb without even blinking. However, these same players will fold their TT-QQ pre to a strong 3bet or 4bet.
In 2/5nl, alot of times these players will raise IP to $45 - $65 with TT-QQ (yes, that is their opening raise) or 3bet +$100 to whatever the original raise was. In these cases when we are likely to be heads up, I will often flat with AA,KK because I know that if we get any lowball flop, they are overbetting (or shipping) pot and then if I c/r them they will auto ship...
But this is rarely the case for me. Typically, my image is such that my 3bets aren't automatically viewed as AA so 90% of the time, I can just 3bet and expect a call.
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