My friend and I usually play 1/3 and 2/5 with buy ins ranging from $300 max to $1000 max.

Through running the math, stack depth and game dynamics of our local game (very loose and fishy), we have come to the conclusion that playing suited connectors below J10s are going to be unprofitable regardless of position. What are you thoughts on this? That means you can NOT play any suited connectors from any position at anytime below J10s. Unless it folds around to you on the button, then you can raise any two cards pretty much dependant on the tendencies of the blinds.

Do you think this is too nitty or extreme? Would you be able to fold when ep opens and gets a few callers and you are on the button with 109s?

Thoughts please.

This makes me wanna play all SCs even more...

SCs are marginally profitable from CO/BTN/SB when it's been folded to you. Any earlier than that, it's going to be more or less neutral EV, or decently -EV especially for players who do not crush postflop. SCs are way overrated, and no they don't "play well multiway." If anything, they play a lot better HU esp as preflop aggressor where you can bluff flops and some runouts. SCs have a lot of value in their fold equity, something that you wont realize in full-ring games in general. Other than that, you're essentially bloating a pot with 6-10 high

Yeah, sure by raising SC you "balance your range." Imo that's not really important at all, and I study a lot of GTO. You just need to raise enough hands where people think you're not a total nitbox who only plays premiums. That way, you get paid off on your good hands. A lot of players open way too wide from EP/MP. I still have no idea why a lot of regs open 65s and that kind of crap UTG or from MP 6-max. It's just -EV. Like yeah sure, you might have an edge on the table but that doesnt make opening 6 high profitable, especially after rake

Wow @ above post. They do play well multi way in that you'll flop a draw and have equity to the nuts vs multiple opponents and can bet to realize fold equity while pricing yourself in to hit. Balancing your range isn't important? Ok so you're the guy who only has big cards, probably winning at 1/2 but I doubt that's good enough at even 2/5.

Opening sc utg isn't something I do often but I still occasionally do it for balance. I mix in 1 combo of 10/98/87/76s opening from any position and change my opening combo when I have shown my cards with regs @ the table.

Good advice for noobs who dont know how to play postflop well.

Otherwise, cutting out all suited connectors below JTs is going to make you play/look like a total nit. Not to mention you are going to have terrible board coverage on flops 9 or lower.
Not sure why you would ever want to fold a hand like 76s getting like 4:1 or better otb. Its clearly +ev to call and see the flop, not to mention the massive implied odds

How aggressive are people playing preflop? What sort of stack sizes are you looking at? They work best when you limp behind from MP/LP or you open yourself from MP/LP and see a flop heads up. Suited connectors play well when you get too see a cheap flop but not well when pots are consistently bloated by multiple raises or by everybody at the table calling a big raise.

With T9s from the button? After an EP raise and multiple callers it depends on how deep stacks are. If stacks are short then it won't be profitable when I probably only get to see the flop. If stacks are deep then calling is good.

I tracked every single hand I played where I had a SC or a suited gapper for about 300 hours. This included open raising them myself, raising after limpers, calling raises with them, open limping, over limping...the whole gamut. Trust me, I make a good amount of money with them so I disagree vehemently with you theory.

Nits gonna nit

Pretty sure Doug Polk would never advocate open folding 56s from the CO. And he plays higher stakes against better competition, so his edge and my edge are probably proportionately the same.

Also, think about this. If you need 1000 hours of hands to get a good sample size, and 1 out of 30 (rough guess) hands are suited connectors below JT. Then you need a 30,000 hour sample to show results that are fairly accurate. That's 15 years of full time live play.

My table used to be a passive preflop / payoff stationy postflop game. So I often would try to get into a hand with the smaller suited connectors (always in LP, sometimes earlier if there were some limps), hit, and get paid off by a moran.

My table has now changed to be an aggressive loose preflop / non-payoff postflop (i.e. players with half a clue, even though they are extremely loose aggro preflop) game. I've also come to the conclusion that smaller suited connectors are pretty worthless in this game, with the exception of perhaps getting into a pot for cheap in LP and then playing them cautiously postflop. Basically, if we hit and a lot of money goes in postflop against most non-******ed opponents, we often find ourselves on the bad end of a "cooler" (which isn't really a cooler).

ETA: Similar to what Minatorr says, my thinking on suited connectors has evolved as my table has evolved. At one time, my belief was that these hands were perfect for seeing a multiway limped pot; now it is my belief that they are probably mostly only valuable HU in position as the aggressor at some point. Basically, for the most part they are extremely overrated in the games I play in now, imo.

GimoG

Did thine maths include frequencies?

Loss leaders ftw.

Lmao ffs at balancing your range at anything below mid/high stakes, especially UTG/MP. What a joke. So is 2/5. And I play pretty balanced in my game.

I'm giving advice to OP, not a mid-stakes online reg or high-stakes live reg looking for advice. Balance isnt relevant when the table cant even count card combinations or the like.

Flopping draws, especially non-nut draws with SCs, does not equate to playing well multiway. You can't call something a "cooler" when you're calling 5-6x bb raises OTB with trash like 54s with a pot of SPR 2-5 and get overflushed for your stack, overstraighted with some suited one-gapper, trips vs trips better kicker, or two pair vs higher/set

Yeah, this is some pretty good advice wrt SCs. Imo people just overvalue SCs too much, and just dont like folding because "ooh, havent seen a nice hand in a while. SC?? Pretty. I call."

They also go up in value when deep. When stack sizes are small and there are a bunch of short-stackers, they have very little value

SC have value in a lot spots. Can really help properly balance all your ranges (bet, raising, checking, and check rasing).

Without them. Hand reading becomes a lot easier against you.

Lol all you want at lower levels. But playing exploitative poker, while having some balance to your ranges is super profitable.

In EP, they are trash though. And fairly big leak IMO.



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i dont think this is a very good example/good argument for us to play small SCs.

the fact that he plays higher stakes against better competition is not an argument for us keeping those hands in our range. the game dynamics are so different. balance is important at those stakes. board texture coverage is important. in other words, there are other reasons for him to be including those hands in his range at those stakes. it's not as simple as "proportionally skill edge is roughly the same so we can do it too." the game is just different at that level, and you have to consider factors at that level that you don't have to at your local $1/3 and $2/5 games.

that being said... i play 56s from the CO lol

Well ya, it might not be that simple. But it's a pretty good indication. It's the same game after all, and he builds his game around being unable to be exploited, so i doubt it would be exploitable at a far lower level. If he's able to profitably play it in a game where solid players are constantly trying to exploit him but can't, I don't see why it wouldn't be profitable in a game with way less 3 betting.

Does he play in a game where half the table will see the flop for 10%+ of their stack?

Gtableconditions,whichareoftendefinedbystakesandst acksizes,matter,imoG

Yeah, LP sure SCs are good in that they are marginally profitable (if you are very strong postflop) and really help you get paid when you have good hands. And to help with board coverage.

I didn't say not to balance at low stakes. I would probably instinctively balance a lot of plays since that's how I'm used to playing for the past 300k+ hands since studying gto.

And when you say "balance," not sure we're on the same track but yeah ofc deception/balance can add to your winrate.

Agree, EP SCs are garbage. Board coverage/balance is a bunch of nonsense if you raise 87s UTG and get 6 callers. I'm sure even the winning regs who open these will hate to admit this because they think they're so much better than the table and thus can profit despite 6-8bb+/100 rake with 8 high from EP. Which is just flat-out a huge leak

If your strategy is to call with SC to play fit or fold post flop, you're probably better off just folding everything below JTs as suggested.

That's not how I expect Doug Polk to play SCs, though. Learning how to win without the best hand is how to make SC profitable.

Can actually close thread after this post. Well spoken, and nuts on.

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Yes,

I would bet a sizable chunk of my bankroll. That you can not play 67s, from utg or utg +1 profitably.

I don't play them. Accidentally had KJHH flip up about a week ago from utg. Table lost there ****, when they seen I open folded it.

Truth was, if I raised. It was gonna go 6 ways to flop. Had 2 huge stations to my left that would have started a calling chain.

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The things you aren't specifically familiar with (and a relatively unstudied field...as I've harped on many times) is how multiway pots go in live poker and how light people stack off postflop.

This gives great value to suited connectors, both in direct odds preflop and in implied odds postflop.

Also live villains have terrible postflop bet sizing, often allowing us direct odds to realize equity.

When you've played enough live poker you will see for yourself. It is a completely different game, with different exploitative strategies.

I would guess that an adaptable bot would play a wide range of suited connectors and possibly some gappers, likely overlimping many of them, and it wouldn't be calculating fold equity at any point in the hand.

Yup, Venice. After we get a feel for the table, we should know if it's loose, aggro and sticky, or tight, passive and has working fold buttons. If we're in the former, unless we're really deep (300bb+), the focus of the game will be fat value, which we can achieve through a more ABC TAG approach that involves little bluffing. We're not going to be seeing flops with suited connectors. Conversely, if we're in the latter situation, we're going to need to start bluffing fit/fold players. It'll be harder to extract value since these guys like to go to showdown w/ TPGK+ & for that same reason we can get away with stealing more pots both pre and post. This is where suited connectors become important. They're simply the best hands to have to bluff with. They do the best vs overpairs & give us ways to make nutted hands that can beat a normal opening range consisting of facecards and PP. So... suited connectors can be great hands if you know your table dynamics and specific villain tendencies. They're used when we're at a table that's profitable to bluff at, or really deep & have the implied odds.

@Avarita, I had a hand go down back in June that's like a perfect example of this...

5/5 ~$1675 eff

BB = Supposedly a pro that plays high stakes & has a dislike for plebeian $5 chips. In this game for peasants, V is completely awful.
Overall splashy and drifts between station & bad LAG. When I first sat down, V was in the middle of telling the table "ok, I'm going to try to stop winning every pot." Over the course of the hour, V has been in a leveling war with another player not in the hand & has shown up with all sorts of hands like Q7o, K2s, SC, almost anything while playing about 35/25 3bet 12% pre and c-betting ~65%

BTN = Older ABCish Russian man that brings half his kitchen with him in thermoses & lunch bags. 3bets as wide as AQs, but mostly JJ+/AKs. Overvalues over-pairs.

Hero = Likely have a TAG image to BB and similar w/ BTN. He hasn't seen me play "speculative" hands.

Hero opens T9 in MP to $20, folds to BTN who 3bets to $65, folds to BB who flats, & hero calls as well. (prolly look like I have AK/22+)

Flop $194

787 rainbow

x,x, BTN $65, c, hero calls getting 5:1 direct.

$389

Q opens backdoor flushdraw

x,x, BTN $195, c, c 4:1 direct odds with $1350 left in 2 stacks

$973

6x

BB fires out $375, I close my eyes hoping to wake up in an alternate universe where the boards isn't paired. It fails, so I call. BTN looks at me scared b/c I called, then tanks and eventually calls. BB says "7 is good" and reveals a Q before mucking. I show the straight, BTN looks super puzzled and stares at his cards in silence for about 15 seconds and mucks.

Hero scooped up 280bb in profit - rake. I'm done bragging as people will look up all the other HH I post if I continue.

I think 109s is fine from MP, and once BB calls, it is very standard to flat the 3b getting such a great price especially deep. I prob still flat 100bb deep. <100bb deep effective it's not profitable opening pre or calling 3b

Im confused as to why you're closing your eyes calling with nut straight when BB puts out a blocker bet otr??

These forums just get nittier and nittier day by day.

SCs are profitable in LLSNL with appropriate barreling strategies assuming you're not terrible at hand reading. If you just check/fold when you miss or check/call with strong draws they're going to be less profitable.

And if you don't raise SCs any good, aggressive regular will eventually notice and own you because in raised pots on low boards you have a set (probably not, because you're not raising 22-66 either right?), a naked flush draw, an overpair, or overcards. And there are 9 ways to make a set on an XYZ flop, at most a couple dozen flush draws, several dozen overpair combos, and several hundred overcard combos. So the regular can barrel you off the vast majority of your range on low boards and to a lesser extent boards like J84 or K93. You could fight back, but let's face it, if you don't want to play T9s, you're probably not going to.

But wait, you're not even talking about limping SCs, just dumping them completely. LOL. Yeah it's too freaking nitty.