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Old 05-19-2017, 01:19 PM   #101
gobbledygeek
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brawndo View Post
22+
A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs+ -76s+
AKo, AQo
All I'm saying regarding this range is that you'd better damn well be expert postflop (which the last two posters may very well be). Suggesting this as a range for less expert players (I won't go so far as saying for everyone, although I think arguments could be made for that) is a recipe for disaster, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:21 PM   #102
daniel9861
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
All I'm saying regarding this range is that you'd better damn well be expert postflop (which the last two posters may very well be). Suggesting this as a range for less expert players (I won't go so far as saying for everyone, although I think arguments could be made for that) is a recipe for disaster, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Actually you just need to be average at postflop to make that range profitable (expect maybe 76s-87s from EP). However that range fails to include other profitable hands such as AJo and KQo.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:23 PM   #103
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
All I'm saying regarding this range is that you'd better damn well be expert postflop (which the last two posters may very well be). Suggesting this as a range for less expert players (I won't go so far as saying for everyone, although I think arguments could be made for that) is a recipe for disaster, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
I think you might be very pleasantly surprised if you decided to simply follow their advice for maybe your next 10-20 sessions. I think your long term results can stand this small deviation.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:28 PM   #104
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

I usually play 22+ from EP, but I think realistically 22-44 should most often just be dropped. I think AJo/KQo/67s/A5s all do better for me than these hands. Or maybe I'm just on an awful run with my flopped sets for the past gazillion hours...
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:08 PM   #105
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

As I say, if anything, I'm tinkering my game to actually play *nittier*, so I'm actually dropping a lot of these hands from my limping range in EP and simply folding them (most of these are very speculative hands, imo, and I'm not convinced they are profitable OOP at raisey tables against all but the absolute lol worst of opponents). I'm not sure where the cutoff line should be with regards to small pairs, but lately if I'm dealt a 6 as the first card in EP I don't even look at my second card before folding.

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Old 05-19-2017, 03:13 PM   #106
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
As I say, if anything, I'm tinkering my game to actually play *nittier*, so I'm actually dropping a lot of these hands from my limping range in EP and simply folding them (most of these are very speculative hands, imo, and I'm not convinced they are profitable OOP at raisey tables against all but the absolute lol worst of opponents). I'm not sure where the cutoff line should be with regards to small pairs, but lately if I'm dealt a 6 as the first card in EP I don't even look at my second card before folding.

GeachtotheirownG
Oh that is nitty, love it lol
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:15 PM   #107
Mat the Gambler
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

Suited connectors are great, because they allow us to defend against C-bets on the flop with hands have have a good chance of improving their equity when the turn card comes.

Example: A flop of A 9 4

I would rather have the 7 8 than 8 8
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:35 PM   #108
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler View Post
Suited connectors are great, because they allow us to defend against C-bets on the flop with hands have have a good chance of improving their equity when the turn card comes.

Example: A flop of A 9 4

I would rather have the 7 8 than 8 8
This seems crazy to me. How often does 87ss improve to a hand that's better than 88 by the river? Can't be significantly more often than 88 makes a set by the river. At least with 88 we're ahead of his bluffs.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:36 PM   #109
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Oh that is nitty, love it lol
The folding-when-only-looking-at-one-card is a trick I picked up somewhere (perhaps here?); it's purpose is to prevent tilt when my folded 55/A5s would have won a big pot and perhaps put me on tilt.

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Old 05-20-2017, 11:13 AM   #110
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
All I'm saying regarding this range is that you'd better damn well be expert postflop (which the last two posters may very well be).
You can't become an expert without trying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler View Post
Suited connectors are great, because they allow us to defend against C-bets on the flop with hands have have a good chance of improving their equity when the turn card comes.

Example: A flop of A 9 4

I would rather have the 7 8 than 8 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
This seems crazy to me. How often does 87ss improve to a hand that's better than 88 by the river? Can't be significantly more often than 88 makes a set by the river. At least with 88 we're ahead of his bluffs.

I believe his point is that you will never feel comfortable with 88 here unless an 8 binks. With 87s there are a lot more good turn cards that can improve your hand and allow you to barrel with confidence. I'd much prefer that Ace be the spade though.

I think a better example would be A7x2x, would you rather have 87 or 88? You should be a lot more confident barreling with 87 given that your equity is 2.5x better than 88 vs AK/AQ/AJ type hands that are unlikely to fold.
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:24 AM   #111
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

This thread have becomed really good, lots of good posts and food for thought from several posters.
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Old 05-20-2017, 12:23 PM   #112
MIB211
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Originally Posted by Dream Crusher View Post
You can't become an expert without trying.






I believe his point is that you will never feel comfortable with 88 here unless an 8 binks. With 87s there are a lot more good turn cards that can improve your hand and allow you to barrel with confidence. I'd much prefer that Ace be the spade though.

I think a better example would be A7x2x, would you rather have 87 or 88? You should be a lot more confident barreling with 87 given that your equity is 2.5x better than 88 vs AK/AQ/AJ type hands that are unlikely to fold.
Your example is much better. In your example we already have a bluff catcher but have more ways to improve. The main benefit of having 88 in your example is that we're ahead of A7.

In the prior example 88 is a much better hand.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:13 PM   #113
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

ty Sol Reader!

Spoiler:
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:22 PM   #114
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

Yeah thanks Sol Reader. Excellent posts ITT.
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:14 AM   #115
ZuneIt
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

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Originally Posted by ZuneIt
Damn good thing! Because A5s has 10% equity going to flop vs. 4 players calling with: 22 - JJ; A5s - AJs; ATo - AJo; KTs+; 75s+; 54s+. 17% equity going to the River.
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Originally Posted by Sol Reader View Post
Are you serious? How often, if opponents are playing that tight a range, are FOUR of them going to be able to vpip? You literally gave them 13% range.

cbf to do the math, but suffice to say, if it's regularly going to go 5 ways, the opponents probably aren't flatting a 13% range.
Ok. 1st of all, I need to try & textplain myself, which is extremely hard to do. Which is why you thought I was knocking your posts.

Your posts are very enlightening & I concluded that your knowledge was abundantly deeper than mine. Your posts & the fact that you've traveled all over the world, as noted in an earlier post in the thread, led me to believe that you do not normally play 1/2. Who can travel the world playing 1/2 & 1/3 NL?

Just because I say that I can't wrap my head around playing A5s UTG, doesn't mean I think you're wrong & I'm right. Or, that your thoughts on playing A5s has to somehow make you a weaker player in my mind, since I've always believed A5s UTG [8 handed] is garbage. Well, not if I can limp in with a minor raise to $5 & get 6 callers who play bad post flop.

Sol Reader, I don't know who you are, but it became obvious to me early on that you are not a 1/2 & 1/3 player. IMO, you play higher stakes games. That doesn't mean your posts are not beneficial to me. Anyone who can make me think, or question my own beliefs, is a good poster. I hope you keep on postin'!

I just hope I can question what you say without you thinking I'm putting you down. Teachers can't teach if they don't let their students question!

As far as the range I gave them go that I gave them, yeah, it was too tight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
What's this 17% equity going to the river thing also? Obviously our actual equity vs range doesn't matter, what matters is how polarised our equity distribution is, that is to say: of the boards that we continue on, who much equity we have.
Point taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
There is a 53% chance someone has an ace with a bigger kicker [10 handed] when you o/r UTG with A5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
You realise this doesn't make it unprofitable right? You realise FIRST they have to vpip it, which, if you open UTG, they probably will fold a bunch of them. Then you have to get dominated on an A high board first, which if you both have Ax, is less likely,....
So you're saying that by me o/r UTG with A5s that some of my Vs will fold A6s-A9s? Certainly not ATs/AJs & will definitely call with AQs+, or raise.

So that's more suited ace combos than A2s-A4s.

If there folding A2s-A4s & A6s-A9s, that's 21 combos removed from the tight range I gave them. So what hands do you make that up with & then add even more to come to a higher calling range than I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
...... then you have to not flop two pair and actually still have the best hand, then third, you have to somehow lose tons of money by flopping an ace with A5s, which, wtf are you doing with it that you're losing tons of money being outkicked with A5s raising from UTG where you have a very strong Ax range, your opponent shouldn't even be value betting multiple streets with better Ax, if you manage to pay them off because they have ATo, that's all on you for being a spewy calling station.
Well said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt
I'll open with T9s UTG long before I'd consider doing it with A5s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
You literally named a hand that I was saying is extremely strong, and told me that that's a better hand than another hand I said was strong. Do you realise how you're not actually, like, disputing what I am saying?
Yes, but I was agreeing with you about T9s, while still debating A5s.

You can't blame me for saying to myself, everything but the bold part: "Self, so much of what he says is point on, I'm looking forward to reading more of his posts. This A5s UTG position of his seems off base, however, due to the fact that he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, I'm going to start playing it. Even though I have no idea who he is."

Would you think that way?

Then it got really out of hand, as I either didn't come close to textplaining myself, glossed over what you had previously written, or both.

Anyways, apologies if I insulted you. Hope to read many more posts from you.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:37 AM   #116
Shai Hulud
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

In your raise to $5 UTG scenario, typical 1/2 players will call insanely wide, I figure something like {88-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AQo-A2o, K2o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o}.

"Tight" ones might just call with {TT-22, AQs-A2s, K2s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AQo-A2o, KTo+, QTo+, JTo}

We have plenty of raw equity against both ranges even 5-way.

And if half the table is typically calling, they have to be calling closer to the top range.
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Old 05-22-2017, 11:33 AM   #117
Sol Reader
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Re: The value of suitedness in live game according to Ed Miller

Thanks for the kind words everyone, I'm glad I've been of some help.

I want to reiterate that this is not some information unique to me, and I am for the most part just sharing what I had learned in reading, learning, discussing, and sharing information with other good poker players. As always, one should be careful in simply taking the word of one supposed authority or expert, so for those who are interested or newly introduced to these perspectives, I highly encourage you to look at a lot of the information out there by consistent and long term winners, or simply hand histories posted of them, finding trends, and trying to understand why those trends are (not all trends are correct, and some often revert back to their original states, but it's useful to find out why good poker players attempt them, and go through those experimentation though processes "with them" so to speak)

Aside from RIO, Doug Polk give some very accessible content that is easily bridged with more complex concepts applied with rigour.

Quote:
Your posts & the fact that you've traveled all over the world, as noted in an earlier post in the thread, led me to believe that you do not normally play 1/2. Who can travel the world playing 1/2 & 1/3 NL?
I've played like 1000 hours+ of 1/2, though admittedly, the 1/2 in Europe and UK often have higher caps and might play closer to 1/3. I've played 600+ hours of 1/2 with less than 500GBP cap though, and have a very high winrate relative to what is usually posted on these forums. I've posted a bunch of stats and graph in the bankroll and finance thread. Most good players don't stay playing 1/2 and 1/3, which is why you don't see many of the higher bounds of potential winrates posted. The reason I have is that after blackfriday I'd lost 80% of my roll, had to rebuild it, and played it a lot of lower stakes, and kept taking failed shots and having to grind it back up again (also 1/2 in UK is a bigger game than 1/2 in America generally speaking so it wasn't so bad).

Nowadays while waist listed on higher games (there are usually few tables of 5/10 or even 2/5 in the UK, so you have to wait to get on) I still play 1/2 and 1/3, and I try to treat whatever stakes I play seriously and as a learning experience.

I find that player lower stakes can train you in playing against fish/worse players, and allow you to experiment with alternate bet sizings and speech plays.

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I just hope I can question what you say without you thinking I'm putting you down. Teachers can't teach if they don't let their students question!
Fair enough, I very much do respect that. I think there were several people disagreeing, some being more disrespectful than others, that it's hard not to mix the sentiment of various posters a little.

Quote:
So you're saying that by me o/r UTG with A5s that some of my Vs will fold A6s-A9s? Certainly not ATs/AJs & will definitely call with AQs+, or raise.
I meant the offsuit combos. I assume people don't fold the suited combos, no, but there are way fewer suited combos of Ax that we would run into as well.

As for you playing it, I personally think experimentation a great way of learning, but you could always take it slowly and start by reading up hands by good players where they open these smaller suited aces, see the various situations they get into, and how they manoeuvre them, instead of jumping straight into it. Even if it IS profitable, you'd have to learn a different skillset than before, after all, so you can't expect to immediately do well with it. That said, I think it's a lot easier to avoid losing a lot of money than one might think if you just keep in mind you have a speculative hand that has lots of barrel potential, and hitting an ace only doesn't generally make you a value betting hand, unless headsup, and then, only for a street or two usually.

A simplified but practical way of looking at it if you're just starting is if you play it like KK on an Ax board, but which you block one of the Ax so your opponent might be a bit less likely to have an ace.

Quote:
Anyways, apologies if I insulted you. Hope to read many more posts from you.
No harm done, I don't mean to be aggressive. Sometimes when you have to explain something that feels obvious to you to many different people over and over again, you end up either being less patient, or just give up explaining altogether. I think a lot of people choose the latter, and perhaps sometimes I feel a little entitled to be a bit impatient since I do choose to take time to explain, and sometimes I get a bit rude. I guess that's just how posting in forums are though, please don't take it as a personal thing.
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