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Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play?

03-24-2014 , 10:15 PM
Situation:
I'm in small blind, holding AJ. I have about $430 in front of me. Villain was good player who had spent the night working $200 up to about $1500, but for the last 35-40 min had started playing looser due mostly to his chip stack imo. I was playing TAG and had garnered a couple "tightest player at the table" comments by this point (game was quite loose, in most games my play would probably have been considered only a little on the tight side).

EP opens pot for $20, 1 MP, CO(Villain) and BTN call along with myself (pot is now 105). I dark check the flop, which comes down K J J rainbow and is checked around. Turn is case J, checked to Villain who bets $128. I take a second, then push all in over the top for ~$270 more.

Do you think this was the right decision? Why or why not?
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-24-2014 , 11:32 PM
You don't really mention anything about villain's post flop tendencies...I probably flat here. If he has a Kx we are getting his stack no matter what unless one of the 3 aces comes on the river. This way we allow him to make an attempt at a river bluff. Even in the unlikely event an Ace comes and he has pure air he could still try and make a river bluff to get you off a Kx since you are perceived as tight. Let's let him make a mistake .
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 02:49 PM
Yea thats very true.. Villain had started off the first few hours as playing pretty tight but winning a lot of money combined with the very loose/passive style of the game had led to him opening up his calling range quite a bit by this point.

I didn't want to post the result right away because this question was more of an extreme example of when to strike when trapping an opponent, but if you want to know i got spoiler below
Spoiler:
Opponent held K (which i put him on), but first inclination was to muck. Talked him into a call, but still felt like I may have struck too soon, which is why I'm looking to see what others think
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 02:53 PM
This situation is extremely V dependent.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 02:54 PM
Why would you raise when there's two other players in the hand and you can get V's stack regardless on the river? Dark checking is also dumb, no reason for it.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 02:58 PM
A good player should be folding a king to your check raise because at best they are chopping and at worst they are drawing dead.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 03:28 PM
I would probably lead the flop

as played i would c/c to get value from bluffs and obviously a king

also c/c to get value from the other players

then check the river bc he has to stuff a king on the river

weird spot, and as usual made harder bc we are OOP

i would have led 55% pot on flop then check the turn
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
Why would you raise when there's two other players in the hand and you can get V's stack regardless on the river? Dark checking is also dumb, no reason for it.
+1

And, bet on the river.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 05:41 PM
NEVER c/r this Turn with players behind to act and IP for River 'donk'.

I see folks overplay quads and str-flush all the time. Just play it like you would Kx, not the nuts. Consistency in bet action is the key to getting value. Although it is very V dependent as well.

The key here is there were others left to act and a flat could look like a lot of things to those guys ... maybe. GL
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 05:43 PM
So you've been labeled the tightest player at the table and you CRAI on the turn on this board? Probably not the most +EV move.

Just c/c and let MP come along. Ship it on the river.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightlight
Spoiler:
Opponent held K (which i put him on), but first inclination was to muck. Talked him into a call, but still felt like I may have struck too soon, which is why I'm looking to see what others think
Lucky for you this villain was a fish because the best he could do is chop.

Spoiler:
Not to mention you're giving away that you have the nuts 100% of the time by talking. When was the last time you saw a big bluff accompanied by chatter? Never. Glad you got paid though. You should play with these guys more often.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-25-2014 , 06:26 PM
With two players behind, your stack size, and that board I'm am ALWAYS calling. And it's not even close.

Hope to get at least one more caller behind you. Players spew and make mistakes at times, too. Villain could have air trying to take it down, and if anyone has a K they're not folding. Raising here, esp. with such a tight image, is just way too strong and your hand is effective invulnerable.

Call and hope someone does something dumb.

If you call and the other two players fold and the river is blank then it gets interesting as whether to lead or check. Depends on your read on villain, how often he has air vs. a king and how often he bets a king when you check to him, etc.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-27-2014 , 03:14 AM
Thanks for all the feedback guys, much appreciated. Like many said, it was very V dependent and most everyone at the table were light on bluffing and heavy on calling which may have influenced my shove action (some of these guys would probably not even bothered reading my strength and would have called even with two raises in front with Kx. Also, yes I very much plan on playing in on this game again . The thing i wonder is why noone likes the dark check with my hand? Usually that play is reserved for lower suited connectors but I feel like there are very few flops I don't plan on checking anyway, by dark checking it kind of buys me position in my view since noone knows what the flop did for me and it allows me to see their actions before having to worry about what I plan on doing.. at least thats how I take it. Although I will say this was one of the very few where I'd probably lead out if I had had the opportunity to.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-27-2014 , 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightlight
Thanks for all the feedback guys, much appreciated. Like many said, it was very V dependent and most everyone at the table were light on bluffing and heavy on calling which may have influenced my shove action (some of these guys would probably not even bothered reading my strength and would have called even with two raises in front with Kx. Also, yes I very much plan on playing in on this game again . The thing i wonder is why noone likes the dark check with my hand? Usually that play is reserved for lower suited connectors but I feel like there are very few flops I don't plan on checking anyway, by dark checking it kind of buys me position in my view since noone knows what the flop did for me and it allows me to see their actions before having to worry about what I plan on doing.. at least thats how I take it. Although I will say this was one of the very few where I'd probably lead out if I had had the opportunity to.
Nobody is bluffing this board in a multi way pot. You should never dark check, it doesn't matter what you have. Exactly what do you gain from doing it that checking after looking at the flop doesn't give you the same opportunity to do?
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-27-2014 , 03:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
Nobody is bluffing this board in a multi way pot. You should never dark check, it doesn't matter what you have. Exactly what do you gain from doing it that checking after looking at the flop doesn't give you the same opportunity to do?
A gamboooooling image?

Raising this turn is bad. Just call and shove river.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-27-2014 , 04:45 PM
I think dark checks have gained me alot of free turns, ppl get confused by it. I've found in my personal experience that alot of players won't bet into a dark check HU without a strong hand, and multi-way as JJ said it gives the image that I have a gambling hand that I would not normally play as a tight player. Plus while checking in the dark gives me less info before the flop, it also gives less info to my opponent. He now is essentially first to act, with the added bonus of checking behind rewarding him with a free turn. Its not a play I would break out with AA obviously but I think it has its purpose.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-27-2014 , 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightlight
I think dark checks have gained me alot of free turns, ppl get confused by it. I've found in my personal experience that alot of players won't bet into a dark check HU without a strong hand, and multi-way as JJ said it gives the image that I have a gambling hand that I would not normally play as a tight player. Plus while checking in the dark gives me less info before the flop, it also gives less info to my opponent. He now is essentially first to act, with the added bonus of checking behind rewarding him with a free turn. Its not a play I would break out with AA obviously but I think it has its purpose.
I guess it's a sound strategy. Two things:

1. Always remember to imagine that you've confused them into not betting anything but strong hands -- rather than realizing that that's actually their strategy.

2. Ignore all the hands like this where you lose money.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-27-2014 , 11:37 PM
You have the nuts... Why are you raising with multiple players behind? Let them do the betting for you. Call the turn and shove the river.
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote
03-28-2014 , 08:04 AM
Raising turn with the mortal nuts and (way) less than PSB left with players behind you is really bad.

Checking dark is bad too. Some flops are profitable to donk-bet on, and you're just giving up that option with no upside. Even if you plan to check 100% of the flops, why would you effectively 'tell' that to your opponents?

The worst are the regs who have a check-dark range (more than you think!). Like they always have small-medium pairs or SCs that they plan to check raise if they hit, but never have a big pair or 2 big broadways which they could donk on favorable boards
Turned quads in 2-5 live game, do you think I made the right play? Quote

      
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