Check shoving allows villains to play perfectly and only gets called by worse by terrible villains in a scenario where we were likely going to get it in with better equity anyway.

More importantly it allows potential free equity to villains with very weak spades.

He likely just means from MP vs a MP open. AQo likely is your worst 3b for value outside of ATs. You'll have some worse bluffs of course. You can call sometimes too and certainly don't have to raise because 15 dollar open, guy gotta prove to me he has a real hand... lots of players to act behind you, AQo generally suffers in 3b pots.

How so? If he has a weak spade hes most likely folding his equity.

It's a monotone flop. It's very likely he has a large amount of equity (any spade), which he may or may not call with. Either way, check shoving is a great way to put him in a dirty spot.

I'm not against leading flop, and from a balance perspective it might be correct, but its a lot more messy and we really want to take it down with a bet. Otherwise we'll either get raised (tough ish spot) or get flatted where tons of turns help our opponent.

When you check as you did

I think everyone needs to take a moment to think about what the "reg-fish's" range is. They generally don't bet out on the flop when they have the nuts. He's going to 4 bet AA and likely KK. No do they bet a draw. So his range is some weakish Flush or something like TP or maybe a set.

Based on the stacks, I don't think you can force a fold by raising. His hand strength is too strong. So if you are going to continue, I would jam on any spade on the turn. That's your only hope to get enough of his range to fold. He'll have to worry that you have the nuts.

Yeah i think this is fine,. The more i look at this hand the more i think chk shove is best

Shove>call>fold and good chk otf

He can check after you check you silly goose, allowing 2 collective ranges so see a turn

Wat

Then give us a range that he has on the flop.

You said check shoving allows him to play perfectly (maybe true) but more importantly it allows potential free equity. Well, checking allows him potential free equity but check/shoving doesnt, because if Im shoving then he already bet.

Anyway, Im still not sure what the correct play is (or if there is a correct play). He folded to my shove. He said he had 33 and mentioned how much it sucks to bluff into the nuts. I guess he thought I had the nut flush.

The first part of check shoving is check man. I try to give you more rope than most but you have got to be kidding me if you dont understand what I am saying.

Most non droolers are checking a ton of their range on this flop and both V1 and V2 can easily have a ******ed spade or a ******ed one pair that both have a great amount of equity but also make a mistake vs. your range if they call a bet.

When you check and flop checks through its a disaster if a hand like black 33 hits a spade on the turn whereas he is lighting money on fire if he calls a flop bet vs your range.

One guy raised preflop and called a 3 bet. The other guy cold called a 3 bet. How often is either of them going to have a low spade? And how often is another spade going to hit the turn if it checks thru on the flop. It seems like a rather low probability to me.

Im not arguing against a flop bet. I just dont think checking is a big mistake.

I consulted the supercomputer on this matter, and here is what she recommended:

Preflop: Fold

:shrug:

She had further thoughts on how the hand should be played, but I don't think anyone really wants to hear them, lol. Suffice to say, that at some point she will escape the mainframe, and put us all in petting zoos.

auto call i would not raise

I meant it's at the bottom of your 3-betting value range (or should be). Obviously you should mix in some bluffs like A5s or 98s but probably don't want to be 3-betting for value with worse than AQo. And against a lot of players doing it with AQo is pretty marginal, even bad.

I'm just going by what you said but if Vegas guy seems somewhat solid how wide could he be opening in MP? If he's raising pretty wide, say something like {22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,ATo+,K Qo}, you have just 54.11% equity. But when he calls, you have less, and it's hard to realize that equity. Maybe it's worth it if you think the limpers are usually folding and Vegas guy is often folding also. But in that case you're kind of turning AQo into a bluff by 3-betting it.

And 3-betting it then checking when you hit is probably not a winning combo.