harrahs ac 1/2

hero: I've been at the table less than two orbits but have already played 2 huge pots, image is lag to maniac all though unwarrented. The first pot I played I doubled up a shortstack on a

A K J rainbow flop

I held AK he held JJ and I mucked w/o showing.

The second hand I won a big pot calling an allin river bet with a pair of 7's.

Table errupted in comments about the call being crazy, but really the guy repped nothing the whole way and to me it just seemed like a bad bluff not a lose/crazy call.
Villian defenitely made numerous comments about me being on tilt etc. etc. prior to the hand we played.

villian: decent reg who plays pretty nitty but has a propencity for blowups post flop. He's a nice guy, middle aged, on a pension. I think he plays for the commarderee or social aspect of the game.
We've logged many hours against each other over the years.

hero $475
villian ~$700

Villian raises to $12 from utg+1
5 players flat his $12 raise
the pots $75 when it gets to me in the sb

I raise to $115 w/ As Ks from sb
villian flats everyone else folds

I've played a bunch w/ vill and am 100% sure he 4 bets AA or KK.

Normally anything else goes into the muck pretty quick. He tanked forevever before making the call.

I figure he also has AKs, or less likely QQ, JJ.

He absolutely shocks me by flatting. This is way out of charecter and I'm confused. My stack size is now ackward in relation to the pot and like I said his play really mixed me up.

I decide I'm going to over bet shove any non Q flop.

Flop
x Q x rb

Worst case scenario
I check
he studies the board for a moment then sloppily moves all in.

Now I'm wishing I would have led because I don't think he shoves top set.

I fold

This hand has been bothering me.

I feel like maybe my thought process was poor.

Questions

Should I be cbetting the flop?

Can I ever call w/ AK in this spot?

In thinking ahead, was it mistake to predetermine my actions on the Q high board so quickly?

What do you guys think about the 3bet pre?

I feel like the previous hands I played effected this hand and I didn't adjust properly, IDK thoughts

thanks

If youre gonna 3bet to 10x the raise and get yourself in this spr situation you better know he can get away from tt-qq on flops, otherwise youre only hoping to hit the flop if called (then not getting action when youre ahead) and are better off flatting or raising smaller.

You know this guy. Does he fold here?

As for calling, if his range is jj,tt,ak of course not?

Most days he's folding QQ pre to that raise and I figured he would definitely let it go on the flop after more pressure and "realise" he must be behind.
I think the table dynamics of the previous hands led to the call pre in this hand.

The reason I questioned calling was because once he shoved I was certain he didn't have a pair. I think thats why this hand is so painfull.

I think you should raise smaller so you have enough of a stack that you can c-bet this flop without being committed to a call if you get raised.

As played, I can't find a hand in his range that you're beating - easy fold. Is he calling your big raise with AJ or worse and open-shoving the flop with air? Unlikely, IMO.

I like a 3bet to $75 or $80 here and vs this villian...if you know him so well he might know exactly what your playing as well.

Either was you can't call an AI and hope he has AJ??? Easy fold....

Why turn AKs into a bluff? Why, if ur gonna raise, go to $115?

PF raise is a bit high imo, am i the only one who would rather flat oop PF?

I don't think flatting is terrible, but you then have to play AK against multiple opponents when you really want to only play it against one villain. The 3-bet is too big, and if he calls, you only have a PSB left, which puts you in a terrible spot.

whats a good amount to 3bet? someone above said make it $75-80 but if you can accomplish the same thing for say $45 why would you make the pot bigger then it needs to be oop?

I think 75-80 is good because it is a pot sized raise. It is large enough to make a lot players to fold out their weaker hands and small to medium pairs. By making it 45, you give players odds to call. They would have almost 3 to 1 on their money. And if one calls, others might follow suit. And if you have callers, they will have position on you in a very bloated pot.

Depends if the seventeen people behind will talk themselves into 33 more to set-mine, etc., with this particular group. 60-70 seems right to me. Bet/fold 115 OTF.

I agree that this hand was screwed up preflop. You made a raise that was way too high. I was thinking 65-70. Enough that the typical 1/2 fellas are going to fold their crap.

You also said you were going to shove over any non Q flop? Why? I think this is the exact opposite of what you want to be doing. You said his likely holdings are TT-QQ/AK. Q high flops are about the only decent ones too c-bet because you're gonna get snapped off on a lot of the other ones.

I'd raise to $70 then bet $100 OTF. Enough to get him to fold his AK hands.

As played snap fold.

Flatting preflop is possible, but if you do you are playing for straights and flushes. TPTK no good in a 7 way pot.

I'm actually OK with your 3bet size. It is a little big ($75 is too small imo), but OOP against 6villains, meh, a little big isn't the worst thing.

Knowing what you will do on Q-flops ahead of time is a GOOD thing.

I'm torn on a cbet.

If he doesn't shove top set, KK/AQ seems likely.

Just as a personal preference, I hate playing AK out of position, particularly if I was the preflop aggressor. I'd rather flat.

On the other hand, there are too many people in this pot and I think you have to raise. I like something in the $50-$60 range to thin it out some. You probably won't get it heads up, but I'd be surprised if more than 3 tag along.

Your flop decision is why raising AK OOP PF is tough. You've turned your hand over with a check and I have no idea how you can call this. Fold.

I think a lot of people are missing some of the basics here.

First, what is the villain's raising range in EP pf? If he's nitty, then the range is no wider than JJ+, AK. If we assign an average of top 25% hands for the rest of the callers, Hero's equity in the hand is 16.5% if he calls. That's not much equity considering that Hero has to play oop post flop. As for the other players, their equity is 11.5% each. TBH, if you told me I could trade 5% equity in a hand oop to have the button pf, I'd take it so fast you couldn't complete the sentence. Beyond that, AK in this situation is a RIO hand if calling. Other than flopping QJT, there isn't going to be a flop you're going to like if you get a lot of resistance. You don't match up well. The main villain has you crushed on a high flop and the rest of the villains beat you on a low flop. So calling is a bad decision, IMO.

That leaves raising or folding. If we raise, the first consideration is the original raiser. Even with the huge raise the OP actually did, he's got to call $103 to claim a $190 pot. To call, he needs 35% equity. If he also has AK, he has to put your range at QQ+ for him to be putting his money in bad. Even then considering position, I wouldn't fold. The value of having position on you would be enough compensation. He's more likely to fold JJ, QQ only if he believes you'd never raise with AK in this situation. Anyone with some experience would need evidence that you were that tight before considering to fold. Given your image is of a loose maniac, the chances he believes you wouldn't raise with AK is near zero.

Therefore, you shouldn't be shocked that he doesn't fold. In fact, he should never fold in this situation with his range and yours. So your plan should be he'll call. After that, the pot moves to $293 and most of the next villains should fold, although there's a reasonable chance one will call with all the money in the pot. Once one calls, the others are never going to be such an underdog to even AA that they should fold.

Assuming no other callers, Hero's equity in the pot is $125 and it cost Hero $115, for net EV of +$10. That's weak value for having to play a RIO hand where I have little chance to make more money, but lots of opportunity stack off with the worst hand. I'll note that if there were only 3 callers instead of 5, then Hero's net EV would actually be zero. It is only the presence of so much dead money that makes raising even a marginal move. If he 4 bets, you'd have to fold.

Therefore, I'd be fine with taking a pass and folding. I don't know to make much money in this situation. If he flats, he's got JJ, QQ or AK. He's not going to pay you off if you hit an A or K (folds JJ or QQ, ties with AK). Given Hero's image on a Q high flop, a flop shove presents him with with a fold only if he has AK, otherwise he calls. Since AK is less than 50% of his range, he's not folding much if there is a Q. On a T high flop, he should call a shove with everything. With the SPR of less than 2, there is just no skill that you can apply. I can see lots of ways OOP to hand my stack to the villain, though. When I'm presented a situation where there is no up side and lots of down side, I'll avoid it.

venice, I feel flatting is an IO spot, noit a RIO spot.

I c/f if I flop TPTK and there's action.

The massively-multiway action will often give you the odds to draw to a flush or straight, plus the likely presence of second-best draws gets you paid when you hit.

I'm coming around to your thoughts on the 3bet though. Up to about 150bb deep I just shove all flops, but at close to 250bb it is rather awkward providing no good options once called.

Whoa, this hand was super butchered in my philosophy of how I play poker.

First off I like a flat pre. I know you guys are like this guy is an idiot. But with this man flatters trapping from the blinds is +EV. Trust me bloating the pot oop, turns a good I mean great drawing hand into a bluff. Which is spew oop to me.

But most are not positionally aware as me. Vs this many villains I have to flat. If I hit TPTK or TPGK I c/r.


Op next time I need to see all the cards not just xQx.

Sorry the flop was 4c Qh 2d

Thanks for the responses so far guys.
Like I stated I have a ton of history with this villian, and I should of added a bit more info in op.

Most importantly, yes he does play nitty, but a better way to describe his play, maybe, is tightish passive.
Meaning he buckles in the face of heat alot.

I think his opening range here is 88+, all Ace paints suited and non, KQs
but he is only calling a 3bet w/ the very top of this range.

normally hes folding his ENTIRE range to a raise this big and 4beting AA KK.
this is why his flat was so off to me.

I hate flatting here as some suggested. I have the worst position on the table and if I make any tptk type hand I don't like it if I bet and get called/raised.

Keep in mind there is 6 players in the hand when it gets to me. For this reason I turned my hand into a bluff.(not saying this is best play)

I felt like if villian folds so does everyone else.

$115 may very well have been to large but I think $60-$70 gets called in more than one spot
then i'm oop in a bloated pot no question about it.

To the guys who advocate flatting, could you expound on the reasoning please.

agreed i like flatting here way more then bloating the pot oop.

good stuff, although I'm not sure I agree yet.
I really have a hard time just folding AKs here.

I'm interested in how your analysis changes given the updated range I gave him, 88+ AJ+ KQs?

Actually after he flatted I thought he had exactly QQ or AK, maybe and I stress maybe JJ.

I'm shoving all non Q flops because I think he folds 100% of the time to this kind of heat. If I push the flop he is not the type of player to put me on AK given the action.

I fundamentaly disagree w/ this. I hate my hand against 6 players. Also I don't see how I'm trapping anyone?

What do you do on a A J 10 flop or K Q 9 or K 7 7 or any flop at all other than 10 J Q and even then if the board pairs on the turn your likely drawing dead...

Things change quite a bit because now you can expect to fold about 1/2 of his range pf. That adds a lot of equity to 3betting. Equity difference between the random 25% hands and AKs moves to 7%.

FWIW, anyone who is opening in EP with AJo isn't a nit. I'd put them at slightly loose if anything.

When you raise you fold out all the weak aces. Those boards you have addressed are not good flops.

The only reason you raise is vs 2 other viLlains. To get value out of the hand. With 6 callers there is enough money already in the pot. No reason to bloat oop.