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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 05-25-2012, 11:36 AM   #16
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Re: Thoughts on this 2/5 spot

your hand is nice to look at, but when you call $25, it's not the $25 thats the problem,
it's that the SPR is now @3:1, and you can't play profitably with Jack high.
In practice, it's not that much better than 56, really.
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:11 PM   #17
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Re: Thoughts on this 2/5 spot

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Originally Posted by quesuerte View Post
Hate to bang on about pre but I find this interesting. I'd rather call HU v the raiser in this spot than 4th in the pot and a massive probability of at least one more.

Stack size issues are made worse by more callers because the SPR is low which is a disaster with our particular hand.

The advantage of position almost disappears and we end up getting in a tonne of money with bad draws and **** pairs.

I think this is a case where the massive opens, very multiway pots and frequent short stacked villains (or hero in this case) far outweigh the button and a pretty hand.
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Originally Posted by stampler View Post
your hand is nice to look at, but when you call $25, it's not the $25 thats the problem,
it's that the SPR is now @3:1, and you can't play profitably with Jack high.
In practice, it's not that much better than 56, really.
How deep do you think Hero needs to be to make this call on the BTN?

My thoughts were that $350 was a decent amount behind because we'd have enough chips to generate FE if we did hit a draw and conversely if we miss or whiff we could fold without the $25 pre really hurting our stack.

Lastly, seems a bit strange to me to prefer being HU vs multiway with JTs on the btn quesuerte. In my mind, we want the direct odds to make the call worth it since majority of the time we are whiffing.

Or am I just getting enamored because we're on the button and our cards are sooootttteeeddd ???

Basically, are we drawing the short stack line at 65bb???

I guess in my mind, that line is drawn at 40bb ish...
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:44 PM   #18
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Some fundamentals are taught playing LHE, and most new players only learn NLHE, so this seems to come up a lot.

JTs is a multiway hand, meaning the inherent value of the hand occurs when you are fortunate enough to see a flop multiway. Money is won/lost with every decision made, JTs makes you money immediately if you see the flop multiway.

In a HU pot with a suited connector I'd typically want around 20-25:1 implied on a call. So if villain opens to $25 I'd typically want at least $500 effective to call.

SPR is still a touchy subject and I was fortunate enough to play and become friends with one of the authors to discuss this issue personally. PNLHE advocated playing these hands with high SPRs which is correct, but you should figure out what the SPR would be in a HU pot when necessary. Bloated pots mean it's easier to get stacks in on good boards. You may not have the maneuverability like you would in a smaller pot with higher a SPR, but LLSNL is not a game where you should make very many moves in big pots anyways. Villains tend to play hands straightforward and getting their money is only a matter of time.
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:49 PM   #19
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Re: Thoughts on this 2/5 spot

Flop play is fine.

we're flipping against AK.

If villain folds 1/50 times, it's +EV
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:11 PM   #20
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Re: Thoughts on this 2/5 spot

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
How deep do you think Hero needs to be to make this call on the BTN?

My thoughts were that $350 was a decent amount behind because we'd have enough chips to generate FE if we did hit a draw and conversely if we miss or whiff we could fold without the $25 pre really hurting our stack.

Lastly, seems a bit strange to me to prefer being HU vs multiway with JTs on the btn quesuerte. In my mind, we want the direct odds to make the call worth it since majority of the time we are whiffing.

Or am I just getting enamored because we're on the button and our cards are sooootttteeeddd ???

Basically, are we drawing the short stack line at 65bb???

I guess in my mind, that line is drawn at 40bb ish...
Top pair is hardly ever folding with these SPRs.

So many Kh 7s 3h type flops where we just get the money in bad.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:45 PM   #21
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Re: Thoughts on this 2/5 spot

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Originally Posted by quesuerte View Post
Top pair is hardly ever folding with these SPRs.

So many Kh 7s 3h type flops where we just get the money in bad.
You're saying KJo isn't folding to a shove here??? How about QQ or TT?

Yes, the FEW times we run into TPTK or overpairs suck, but the MAJORITY time our V's will miss their hands or won't be thrilled w calling an overbet shove so we'd have "some" FE.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
You're saying KJo isn't folding to a shove here??? How about QQ or TT?

Yes, the FEW times we run into TPTK or overpairs suck, but the MAJORITY time our V's will miss their hands or won't be thrilled w calling an overbet shove so we'd have "some" FE.
This +1. I don't thing Hero raise size is optimal in a live setting. Against good hand readers sure maybe overbet shoving says FD, but most villains see big money as a big hand.
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