In 200+ bb deep games where the dynamics of the game are as follows:

1. Lots of limping
2. Lots of limp-calling
3. Lots of 3-4 ways to the flop for 5x preflop raise
4. 3bets pre are nonexistent

Based on above, what is the bottom of your range in opening with limpers in front of you or from UTG? Are we still opening K10, KJ, Q10, Q9s, J10off in LP etc?

thisll get locked. questions are to vague. Sounds easy though. Just bet for value a lot.

You should simply be raising larger pre to isolate...

my range will stay the same generally but my raise amount will be increased depending on the number of limpers.

i.b.l.

What position are you in?

What are the post flop tendencies of the players?
What is your stack size going to be in the hands? Will you have 1k?

Are you any good at playing 200bb+ deep?

All of these things will be relevant in the hand.

In general, open a tighter range for large amounts from all positions, cBet, profit.
Rub money on titties.

This is actually a very good question and could generate good poker theory conversation.

It sounds funny but this game type was one of the hardest for me to adjust to. (Deep, loose passive games)

I don't think it's vague at all. Sure there's not a specific example but the question is about situational theory, not a single hand.

The parameters are clear, 200bbs deep, no one folds pre, no one 3bets pre. How do we treat medium value hands and in what positions?

I tried my best at keeping this from getting locked, bro.

I might add my limping range will be opened up more in late position when there are a bunch of limpers, I might even limp with J7o because I can

a) play better post than them
b) out play them when they flop TPTK (weak players will limp AQ) and I flop two pair
c) steal the dead money if no one is interested in the flop

Appreciate it! Your paraphrasing does wonders!

Okay so you guys want something specific:

1k effective full-ring 9 handed 2-5 game. Hero is in CO with K10s..

Game Dynamics: I have been pretty much controlling the opening raises as many people are either folding, limp-calling, or limp-folding to my isoraises.. I can sense that alot of people are waiting for me to raise preflop now.. I've been playing extremely well with 0 showdown hands and up $500 in an hour. 1.5k stack in front of me. I've been the only person to check-raise flops, 3bet preflop, etc. I am the table aggro.

Fish to my right has been playing every hand i open.. 4 limps to me in the CO with K10s.. Should I be isoraising with these types of hands? Lets say i have AKs, should i be isoraising with this too or should i make it $35-$40 to get it 4 ways to the flop. Thanks Ava!

with 4 limps and the table waiting for you to raise I might just limp KTs. AKs is a clear value raise to isolate whoever decides to come along. KT is situational however. If they're not adjusting go ahead and keep pummeling them.

This is a good post, very relevant to today's games, could apply to some 5/10 NL games as well.

My strategy has been to increase my bet sizing, sometimes to $50+ depending on the table dynamics, # of limpers and the specific players involved. I also have been opening more pots in LP (more than usual) with suited connectors and suited two gappers so as to confuse the EP-MP limpers when the board comes dry and they believe there's no way I connected on the 863r board. Plus when they see this they start thinking all of your raises are with junk and then they pay you off when you actually have a big PP or flop a set.

I still often get called by one or more limpers (in a recent session an EP limper with a ~$250ish stack said very serioulsy "hey, I liked my hand for $5 what's $45 more").

As for C-betting multi-way in a very loose passive table it's very situational and table/player dependent, but many of these loose passives with call at least one bet on a fairly dry board so pots can get bloated fast.

These games are really easy to beat with patience IMO, but they can be frustrating when we aren't hitting and the loose passive types are calling.

Never limp this game. Let the $25 pot builder be your limp. Also, 3! occasionally from late position with a wider range.

The interesting thing for me is that most of the rooms I play at have a $500 max buy in. But I show up 11pm or later and table select like a boss so usually most stacks are $800-$2k deep.

This creates an interesting situation when it's 6 limps to you otb and you look down at KJo or ATs and no one is ever folding. The answer of course is still to raise but it is a very high variance game because even though you are 100bb deep you will have no SPR to the flop and the loose passiveness of these games means oftentimes villains do have AQ/TT type hands and/or you are playing against a huge range of hands otherwise.

In a way it is almost as if the entire table is colluding against you. Pretend they are and adjust to that dynamic. (I got that gem from BGP)

Rather than locking for not being specific enough, I went the other way, and made it less specific. This is a discussion that we haven't had in a while, and should. There are lots of deep and passive games out there, and not just at $2/5. A lot of home games, for example fit the description, but at much smaller blinds.

I agree this is a good topic. Subbing

I think our opening and overlimping range depends on our image. If we have a FOS image or have been bullying the table, I'm more inclined to limp the KTs in pos. I don't want to make it 40 and get 6 callers. If I have a solid winning image I like isoing large, about 8 or 9x over 4 limps, cbetting most textures heads up and collecting manies.

If we are always getting 5+ callers I'm definitely tightening up my open range and opening larger than usual.

If my V's are pretty stationy post I'm limping pretty wide looking to smash flops

My opening range will also be very dependent on how good or bad my V's are post

In a deep game, information is the most valuable parameter. (position is one way to win the info war).

In a loose passive game, information is very tough to come by (even in position) and typically a strictly-value-based strategy is max EV.

~~~

So here we have a contradiction...
in a deep-loose-passive game - we would be leaking the most info by playing pretty straightforward for value, yet loose-passive opponents are beat by value betting...so how do we account for the deep "info wins" factor?

~~~

1) if these players will never get their stacks in for thin value or as a bluff... then being deep actually doesn't work against hero's value strategy.. play straight forward for value. Stacks are deep, but rarely are they in play during thin spots. Don't overcompensate for depth. You are in a faux 'deep' game.

2) consider that 200bb is effectively smaller on post flop play when preflop pots are often already 20~30 bb on a single raise, multiple callers. Big cards still win out because room post-flop is still somewhat limited. Pick hands AND position that have good visibility multiway - so that you are doing the best value betting and your opponents are missing value (including your preflop betting... plan on show down poker - big cards that aren't RIO trouble.. build pots in position - ones which you can see through and realize your equity)

3) as we get deeper, the river becomes a much more important street - even with these 'faux' deep games... simply because a river bet for value can easily be 100bb. Pre-flop plan ahead! Can you see yourself wanting to bet the river for 100bbs of value with this hand? What does it need to become in order to bet that much and get called by worse? (hint, sets, straights, top two, big flushes)... who is on the wrong end of this stuff? (small two-pairs, small flushes).
.. but my opponents never punish me? Fine, then mix it up with those RIO hands, just never be the foolish big bet caller if you have categorized them as weak and passive. What makes it easier to (a) not miss your value AND (b) not be a victim of their value? POSITION

4) if you actually end up in a tough game - ... well that is for another thread.

Raise to 10bb pre flop. If that still gets 3+ calls, tighten up range a lot but keep raising to 10bb. Raise with AJ+, KQ+, 99+. If players don't care at all what your image is, I may just raise AQ+, TT+. Limp a fairly wide range pre flop IP. Tighten up a lot OOP but you can still limp suited aces and SCs if people are still paying off three streets

From early position I'd raise only AQ+, TT+

Quote of the Year, imo. Never seen the value of position so accurately and succinctly explained.

I hereby award you three internets.

This is very wrong.

In a deep game, explicit odds go way way down and implied odds go way way up.

Problem with larger raises preflop is that you can't make it large enough to avoid RIO, and if you actually try, you end up making some gigantic mistakes where the old saying of "winning small pots and losing big pots" ring true.

Without specific reads of players, a deep passive game is going to be played a lot of a limit game.

A lot of small high variance spots being passed around, and occasionally few medium+ pots.

Position becomes the king, and very little else matters IMO, unless of course you can develop better reads.

I'm just going to emphasize Bip!'s points. In any deep game, position is king. In such a game as described where nobody is folding pf, you want to see what everyone does first before you react on the flop. You have keep in mind you aren't "outplaying" anyone. Someone will have a decent hand every time. Your edge is going to be getting more money in when you're ahead and not chasing with second best hand.

The final thing to keep in mind is that is that you are 20-25:1 to hit 2 pair+. You really want at least 25:1 to 30:1 to make up for the times you get coolered. So at 200BB if someone raises 8BB, you're not going to get odds odds to call non-suited connectors.

I limp a lot IP with such dynamics. Raising is pure bad unless purely for value as ppl dont fold often enough and then you need to stack off on 1pair hands given SPRs. Eg; billion limpers and you raise with JT otb to 8bb. And say you get 3 callers. With 32 bb pot and say 90 bb effectively behind, it is going to be tricky to not commit with any flop action.

SCs, suited Ace, suited broadways and low-med pairs are just a limp from LP. From EP I restrict my limping range to pairs, and depending on my mood suited Ace and high suited connectors.

Post flop bet sizing is very important as there needs to be a clear plan on at what point you are getting committed and does your hand strength justify that.

Ding ding diiiiing. Was going to reply with a post relating to #1, but you crushed it and then some.

Most villains are passive at 2/5 and below. It doesn't matter if they are 100bbs or 1000bbs effective with you. I'm isoing extremely wide from lp/button but very rarely cbetting into multiway pots in standard games at both 100bb stack depths and when very deep. If I'm in a sticky game where 5+ are seeing flops and basically everyone's game pre has gone to ****, I'm limping a TON in lp. I've banged my head against the wall enough trying to exert pressure on flops/turns in bloated multiway pots with a wide, wide range, and it doesn't end well. And, I don't care how gangster you are postflop, you're going to leak $ all over the place if you try.

Pretty much the rationale why most players don't profit in these games, because they're so afraid of losing pots and see losing as "leaking."

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