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Spread limit primer? Spread limit primer?

01-17-2010 , 10:11 PM
So for those of us who live in a spread-limit only area (Colorado in this case), has anyone written up or have a quick primer on the strategic differences between NL and Spread Limit?

Last edited by Rapini; 11-17-2011 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Time to share the excellent Nate article with LLNLHE; it's run its course in B&M.
01-17-2010 , 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirFelixCat
So for those of us who live in a spread-limit only area (Colorado in this case), has anyone written up or have a quick primer on the strategic differences between NL and Spread Limit?

(I saw your post on the other CO thread.)

I've played a few times in Blackhawk. One difference in Spread Limit vs. NL is that it might take an extra round to get all-in. It may hamper you if you have a short stack and just can't jam it.

I've played in the Omaha/8 game at the Gates, and the spread limit means that many pots are protected i.e. I'll almost always have the odds to chase the bigger draws, where calling a pot-sized bet would be prohibitive.

The good news is that the buy-in caps are fairly standard and not too restrictive. If you and an opponent have big hands, the money will likely go in.

I'm interested in seeing any other responses to this thread!
01-17-2010 , 11:18 PM
It depends on what the blinds are and what the max bet is set at. In Washington you can play 3/5 or 5/10 spread limit with a max bet of 500. There has been very few times where I wanted to bet more than 500. The only rule that annoys me is you are only allowed to raise 3x per betting round.
01-18-2010 , 05:22 AM
As long as the max bet is around 1/2 (or greater) of the table average, then the game is very very comparable to NL since a max raise will pretty much put you all-in.

In the San Jose Area, the spread limit is 5-200 meaning max bet is $200. Most people buy into the game with $300, so this is effectively like NL since a max bet/raise can be a $400 swing and once you break out the max bet guns, it carries the same wieght as an all-in bet.

The only time it works against you, is when you have a multi-way pot in which max bets have taken place on the flop. Once that happens, then the game turns into a 100/200 limit game since you now have pot odds to call for almost any draw come turn and river.

But the psychology of 'max' bet works like NL all-in and many players will actually forget they have pot odds believe it or not.

So basically, for most cases, spread plays like NL.
01-18-2010 , 02:21 PM
Hmmm, makes sense. I'm in Colorado, so max bet is $100, regardless of the blinds (1/2 or 2/5). I would think that the 2/5-100 ($100 max bet) is a bit more...tricky(?) than the 1/2 as a max bet, accomplishes what you would want most of the time.

Notsomuch in 2/5 though. Hmmmm.
01-18-2010 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirFelixCat
So for those of us who live in a spread-limit only area (Colorado in this case), has anyone written up or have a quick primer on the strategic differences between NL and Spread Limit?
Well, you're really dealing with a hybrid game. It sometimes plays like no-limit, and sometimes like limit. The 1/2-100, for the most part, plays pretty much like no-limit, but occasionally you will get in a big multi-way pot, where a $100 bet is significantly less than the size of the pot, and it may be profitable to chase good draws.

The 2-5/100 is going to turn into a limit game more frequently. It tends to play like no-limit pre-flop and on the flop, and limit on the turn and river.
01-18-2010 , 03:01 PM
SirFelixCat--

A while back I wrote this article for the 2+2 Magazine. It was well-received. Perhaps you'd find it helpful.

All my best,

--Nate

Quote:

Beating The Spread: Developing Winning Spread-Limit Strategies

Limit and no-limit hold'em are extensively studied, but far less effort has been devoted to spread-limit hold'em, wherein a player can bet or raise any amount from the big blind to a defined maximum. There are two primary reasons for this: spread-limit hold'em is far rarer than either limit or no-limit hold'em, and many players think that effective spread-limit play is simply a no-limit strategy with maximum bets substituted for any bets that size or larger.

This misconception leads to constant mistakes. In my career at the Casino Arizona 5-150 spread limit game (with $2-$5 blinds and a $150 maximum bet) I have seen many dozens of players who obviously use these kinds of strategies. Many of them win, but that is only because their opponents play even far worse than they do. Thinking carefully about the nature of spread-limit poker and developing your strategies accordingly will enable you to make stronger, more profitable decisions.

Spread-limit poker shares characteristics with both limit and no-limit poker. When the pot is small compared to the maximum bet, implied-odds considerations dominate those of immediate odds; conversely, when the pot is large compared to the maximum bet, the game strongly resembles straight-limit poker (free-card raises, crying calls, and all). There is no single point at which the game tips from one to the other -- as long as the effective stack is larger than the maximum bet, the spread-limit rule affects the strategy. Whereas in no-limit you should tailor your decisions to the effective stack, in spread-limit you work in terms of the maximum bet.

Good no-limit players adapt in order to capture big bets. They inflate pots in position; they take risks to inflate pots in favorable situations when the stacks are deep; they play extra hands when they figure to outplay their opponents on the big streets. These habits, translated into a spread-limit game, are all leaks. Too much money gets in preflop compared to postflop, and losing money (or winning less money) before the flop is therefore a bigger penalty.

Since the game plays qualitatively differently depending on the pot size, different hands will prefer different-sized pots in spread- and no-limit poker, and a proper pot-manipulation strategy will incorporate these differences. Suppose your hand has a hot-and-cold edge but generally suffers from reverse implied odds. You'd rather play limit poker than big-bet poker with it, so try to get the pot big. Suppose that (as in the Casino Arizona game) the big bet is 30 blinds and a loose player opens for 4 blinds from late middle position. The cutoff and the button, both unremarkable players, call. You have AQo in the big blind, and the stacks range from 100 to 200 blinds. Reraise the maximum! Your hand rates well against this field, and while in no-limit poker you would often wince at the thought of playing a big pot, you won't have to face any pot-sized bets after the flop. (Let me offer the same disclaimer that Ed Miller and David Sklansky do in No-Limit Hold'Em: Theory and Practice. This article is not about what to do with a given hand; it is about how to adjust to a maximum bet. There might be a more profitable way to play AQo in this spot. The key is that what is often a bad no-limit play will usually be a profitable spread-limit play.)

Conversely, suppose four players limp to you on the button with JTs. In no-limit a raise is often advisable, but as long as the maximum bet is not very large you are better off limping. Why shift the weight of the betting away from the big streets, where JTs thrives? Sweetening the pot might be correct, but if you make it 6 or 8 blinds preflop you will, if you make a monster, find yourself unable to bet more than a fraction of the pot on the river, or even the turn. If the maximum bet is large relative to the big blind, or if the pot is shorthanded, then a pot-sweetening raise can be larger. But when four players limp to you and the spread is 30 blinds, any such raise should be very small, no more than 3 blinds. (It should be noted that many of these games play short relative to the maximum bet, and you will find yourself in some pots against opponents with no more than two maximum bets. In these cases, your stack-winning strategies will closely approximate those in a no-limit game.)

Similar adjustments apply to the flop. In no-limit, you often inflate the pot on the flop with a good draw such as the nut flush draw, willing to take the pot down but unworried about a call because of the possibility of winning a large pot. Playing such hands aggressively is often correct in spread-limit, but be careful: the bonus possibility of winning a monster is usually absent, and immediate equity losses you face are larger compared to what you can make up later.

Many other standard no-limit plays need to be rethought or back-burnered. Briefly: whereas a checkraise in no-limit can be several times as profitable as a simple bet and call, it is only twice as profitable in spread limit. Blocking bets have their place but are less effective -- why block a big bet your opponent can't make? "Bluff-calling" (or "floating") is often less effective, because the bluff you plan to make (and the future bets looming over your opponent) aren't as threatening.

Recently I played a 5-150 hand wherein my decisionmaking would have been completely different had I been playing no-limit. A gambling, losing player with money and energy to burn had just reloaded to $350 and made it $25 in middle position. His raise meant at least a reasonable hand -- usually he just limped and called -- but certainly not necessarily a big one. A semi-tight thinking regular called, and a new player called. I held AKo in the big blind. The two callers had approximately $400 and $200, and I covered all my opponents. I raised the maximum, making it $180. I would have often made a big raise in no-limit, but the play is even better here. A big multiway pot with one pair is no disaster in a spread-limit game; even if the stacks were deeper, the pot would have been so large that we would have effectively been playing limit poker.

As it happened, only the original raiser called and we saw a JT5 rainbow flop. In no-limit poker, my flop decision would have pivoted on the effective stack size. An all-in bet would often have been appropriate, and the stack sizes would have affected the size of the preflop raise. Here, though, I couldn't bet more than $150, and there were only two maximum bets left in the effective stacks anyhow. So I made the clear play of betting $150. He called after a pause but without any apparent internal conflict, which meant, I thought, that he had a pocket pair (he would have done this even with many pairs smaller than tens), a piece of the board, AK, or AQ. (His preflop range was significantly wider than this.)

The turn paired the jack. In no-limit with deeper stacks this is a tricky spot, playable in many different ways, and often best avoided by modifying earlier decisions. Here the decision was less complicated. There was $175, barely more than a full bet, left. My opponent's range beat mine and he wasn't folding anything, but he played late streets weakly and would have checked behind with most of his hands. So I was able to simply check and hope for a free card, planning to call (getting approximately 6-1) if he bet. The turn went check-check.

The river paired the ten. In no-limit this is a spot to think about inducing bluffs, blocking a bluff you can't call, and pushing a chopping ace out of the pot. In spread-limit, though, this spot is much simpler. My opponent was not folding an ace, and was capable of a desperation bluff, so I checked to give him some rope. He checked behind with 99 and I took the pot.

This hand epitomized the spread-limit experience. I thought about immediate equity instead of the possibility of capturing a big bet later; I valued my marginal hand more highly than I would have if getting to showdown were trickier; and I threw my big-bet capabilities out the window preflop and didn't try to make a $150 bet do more work than it could bear later. And my opponent helped me by playing badly.

So if you find yourself playing spread-limit, have fun. You will be playing an under-studied, misunderstood game, and you will have many opportunities to make creative plays that will win you money and look strange to your opponents who can't overcome their limit or no-limit backgrounds. Seize these opportunities and get the money.
01-25-2010 , 10:12 PM
Nate, I read this the other day and forgot to post and say thank you...so, thank you. I definitely welcome other input as well!
01-25-2010 , 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 125Lute
It depends on what the blinds are and what the max bet is set at. In Washington you can play 3/5 or 5/10 spread limit with a max bet of 500. There has been very few times where I wanted to bet more than 500. The only rule that annoys me is you are only allowed to raise 3x per betting round.
Where does this go down at? Where im from u can only bet $40
06-24-2010 , 01:09 PM
bump
08-11-2010 , 09:00 AM
Thanks for the article Nate. I would love to hear more on your thoughts about spread limit.
04-26-2011 , 03:29 PM
Great article, bump for obvious reasons
11-17-2011 , 06:51 PM
Bump yet again....


I'm playing a 2-10 spread limit game... OBV a different beast than the one described in Nate's article (which was amazing btw), but some of the concepts definitely carry over. Would love to get some more strat going here, and if anyone wants to PM me and chat on Skype about this game, I would greatly appreciate it.

So hopefully to get the ball rolling a bit, here is a situation i have a bit of trouble with:

Its 9 handed, and a typical loose calling fest of a game. 1/2 blinds, 2-10 spread

Hero is in the sb with AQo.

CO/HJ/BTN call

action on Hero with a $9 pot.


The problem I have in these situations is that although my hand plays well against the field, if I jack up the bet and raise to $12, I will likely get 2-4 callers, which i believe is pretty bad since I would be OOP with a bloated pot postflop... but if I simply complete here, I'm letting everyone with weak hands see a cheap flop....

I believe completing here is appropriate because I can charge people a lot more for their draws (relative to the pot) when I hit... But I'm not certain.

These spots have had me going around in circles, and I would love some input.
11-23-2011 , 03:55 PM
I think the spot you described plays very similar to a limp fest in a limit game; therefore, You should raise the max pre-flop here since you are way ahead of the limpers range. Since the max is only $10.00 you are basically playing 5/10 limit at this point.

Thoughts on a 2/60 format w/$200.00 max buy in:

What about if the max bet is $60.00? This is where I my limit and no-limit background will get me into trouble. Would it be correct to raise this the max even though there is only $9.00 in the pot? Popping it to $60.00 from the sb with $9.00 in the pot would more than likely take it down right there and probably peg us as a maniac, which will bode well when we make the same plays later on with a monster.( AQos is strong hand against our collective villian's limping range but to avoid a preflop discussion lets just assume we have AKs)

Now, if we did actually pop it the max ($60.00) and get a call we could use Nate's example of pot control to effectively play optimal based on the remaining stack sizes and the size of the pot.( easier said than done) Since the max buyin is only 3.5 BBs ($200.00) we cannot force anyone who called out unless they are really bad, so in effect what we did is bloat the pot pre-flop and the game has now changed over to 60/60 limit with 2.5 big bets remaining before we are all in.

The more I think about it the less inclined I become to play a spread limit format. Although, where I live they do offer a 5/60 spread format with an unlimited buy in, which probablt plays closer to 30/60 than NL.
11-23-2011 , 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrasso
Thoughts on a 2/60 format w/$200.00 max buy in:

What about if the max bet is $60.00?
This is pretty much an analogue of the Casino AZ game that Nate describes, where the max bet is 30x the Big Blind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrasso
The more I think about it the less inclined I become to play a spread limit format. Although, where I live they do offer a 5/60 spread format with an unlimited buy in, which probablt plays closer to 30/60 than NL.
The 1/2-60 game sounds great, and will often play a lot like NL, especially when you buy in for $60 or $100 bullets. I would agree that 2/5-60 would be a lot more like 30/60 limit than NL. Shunning SL isnt much of a solution. Players in these games can be really bad, and learning to play SL specifically, really well, is a new weapon you can aquire that they likely dont have.

Last edited by ThisKid$Tough; 11-23-2011 at 07:13 PM.
09-22-2012 , 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate.
SirFelixCat--

A while back I wrote this article for the 2+2 Magazine. It was well-received. Perhaps you'd find it helpful.

All my best,

--Nate
Nate - this is fabulous. I need more education about the spread limit vs no limit issue. I have studied quite a bit about NL, but I play 2-100 at WHP and the 3/300 at CAZ.

for example, yesterday, in the BB, I have a raise to $20 in front of me and a single caller. I look down at JTs and fold (10x the BB!?). As you might guess, I would have won a big pot had I called.

It seems that the games really play like a $12 - $100 game, as $12 is the standard raise and it rarely gets it heads up. Usually there 3-5 callers. So the max $100 bet changes everything.

Where could I get more info? or shall I make it a part time career writing about these issues myself

Thanks,
Chuck
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