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Old 05-05-2017, 07:51 PM   #126
Breadfish666
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
Thanks.

Here's another one: Very early in a session, I'm UTG with KK and a 40bb stack. I raise to 5bb and get 5 callers (2 of which were the blinds). Now there are 30bb in the pot and I have 35bb behind. Flop comes 899. Both blinds check. Is anything other than a 9 calling if I shove? I'm thinking if the table is so loose that 5 people will coldcall a UTG raise somebody will call with an 8, a pocket pair, JT, T7, 67 or an ace. They might even call 2 overcards (they don't know I have KK). I say shove and if someone has a 9 FML.

Thoughts?
6bb+ raise here at this table utg if you're getting 5 callers at 5bb raise.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:54 PM   #127
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

I had a chance to try the shortstack strategy live a few times. My first reaction:

Holy guacamole with jalapenios is it BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

To those of you who actually play this strategy, how do you combat BOREDOM TILT?
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:28 AM   #128
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

You don't. The people that can play that style in live poker are bots sent from the future with the expressed purpose of crushing souls, $100 at a time.

You could try to play LAG.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:48 AM   #129
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
Thanks.

Here's another one: Very early in a session, I'm UTG with KK and a 40bb stack. I raise to 5bb and get 5 callers (2 of which were the blinds). Now there are 30bb in the pot and I have 35bb behind. Flop comes 899. Both blinds check. Is anything other than a 9 calling if I shove? I'm thinking if the table is so loose that 5 people will coldcall a UTG raise somebody will call with an 8, a pocket pair, JT, T7, 67 or an ace. They might even call 2 overcards (they don't know I have KK). I say shove and if someone has a 9 FML.

Thoughts?
Check/shove pre.

As played, check/shove flop and turn. If it check thru to the river, bet something.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:19 AM   #130
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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To those of you who actually play this strategy, how do you combat BOREDOM TILT?
I'm guessing they pass their time by looking at their giraffe which is similar to that of the one posted by Flux earlier.

Gmostpeopleprobablyaren'tmentallycapableofplayingt hisstyleG
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Old 05-10-2017, 01:36 PM   #131
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

One thing I've tried, that works for me for a couple hours, is practicing paying attention to the table - watching for people who look at their cards long before it's their turn and put a chip on them if they're going to play them (targets for limp/reraises), watching for who's raising a lot vs. a little, who's capable of bluffing etc., trying to put people on ranges throughout hands etc.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:38 PM   #132
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Of course it's boring, and much more boring than playing limit. You don't play any hands and have very little in front of you so you're not risking much, and also not winning much the very few times you do win a hand.

And the times you do win a hand will be almost never.
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Old 05-22-2017, 08:46 AM   #133
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

So I finally had a chance to try shortstacking 1/2 at Winstar. Here were the things I remember from about 2 hours at the table:

A 60-year-old man to my left turned a nut flush and checked it, finally betting it on the river. I saw flopped trips (by a different villain) get called on the flop, checked through on the turn and then just called on the river.

There was one hand where a PFR got 3 callers, he c-bet and got one caller and then the caller donked the turn (the flop was J high and the turn was a brick). The PFR folded and the donker showed QJ.

UTG raised to $6, 2 callers, the woman to my left minraised to $12. I don't remember the rest of the hand but the woman to my left ended up showing KK.

Several villains at the table were willing to limp. There was a player who has maybe 40 who had a gigantic stack - probably had four figures in front of him - on the other end of the table that was raising to a decent amount once or twice per orbit. Sometimes all of the limpers would fold sometimes all of the limpers would call.

There was one villain who looked mid-40s who was clearly bluffing a lot. The old man who missed a street of value with his nut flush tanked for about 30 seconds before calling the bluffer's river stab with 2nd pair.

Most of the villains were really surprising me with their betsizing. In a 4-way pot they'd bet $15 on the flop, get 2 callers and bet $20 on the turn. Preflop the betsizing was a little chaotic too - the guy with the huge stack was consistently raising enough to get value but others were betting what almost felt like random amounts. So few hands were going to showdown I wasn't able to look for patterns.


As far as the hands that I played, I got to see a free flop 5 ways from the BB with Q9o. The flop was JT3tt and I bet $7 into it (felt fine, to this point I don't think I had seen anyone raise the flop yet and I have equity if flatted with a J or a T). 2 callers and a minraise. Of course I'm not folding to the minraise but unfortunately I'm out $14 now - a 3rd to the flush hit the board without completing my straight so I'm done with the hand.

A couple orbits later I get 99 in MP and raise to $10. The woman to my left who minraised KK to $12 minraised me to $20. After everyone else folded I looked at her and said, "I believe you!" and folded. She showed me KK and mucked.

Several orbits of not getting dealt any playable hands later my stack was down to $40 so I got up and moved to the LHE table (where, incidentally, I won it all back and more).

Thoughts on my play and my notes will be appreciated.

Last edited by DalTXColtsFan; 05-22-2017 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:39 PM   #134
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

did you have <12x implied odds with 99? if you had 12x or more implied odds with 99 id call for 10 more. if you started with 100 and lady covers you should have right implied odds to try to hit your set. just have to be willing to let go if you flop an overpair. x-ray vision her hand as AA, KK. otherwise good fold.
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:10 PM   #135
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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did you have <12x implied odds with 99? if you had 12x or more implied odds with 99 id call for 10 more. if you started with 100 and lady covers you should have right implied odds to try to hit your set. just have to be willing to let go if you flop an overpair. x-ray vision her hand as AA, KK. otherwise good fold.
I think I had $60 at the moment I made that raise (not sure). The lady had me covered by a mile. So I'm paying $10 for a chance to win the $30 in the pot plus the $40 behind (from her stack of course). Also if an A flops I may not get her whole stack. That means my implied odds are only 7 to 1, and possibly a little less than that, correct?

I can't possibly imagine her having anything other than JJ-AA/AK, and even AK is a stretch. She minraised KK several hands earlier and I had only played 1 hand in the last 2 hours - what did she have *me* on?
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:11 PM   #136
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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I think I had $60 at the moment I made that raise (not sure). The lady had me covered by a mile. So I'm paying $10 for a chance to win the $30 in the pot plus the $40 behind (from her stack of course). Also if an A flops I may not get her whole stack. That means my implied odds are only 7 to 1, and possibly a little less than that, correct?

I can't possibly imagine her having anything other than JJ-AA/AK, and even AK is a stretch. She minraised KK several hands earlier and I had only played 1 hand in the last 2 hours - what did she have *me* on?
yeah good fold then. thats how you win the money fundamental theorem of poker.
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:24 PM   #137
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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As far as the hands that I played, I got to see a free flop 5 ways from the BB with Q9o. The flop was JT3tt and I bet $7 into it (felt fine, to this point I don't think I had seen anyone raise the flop yet and I have equity if flatted with a J or a T). 2 callers and a minraise. Of course I'm not folding to the minraise but unfortunately I'm out $14 now - a 3rd to the flush hit the board without completing my straight so I'm done with the hand.

A couple orbits later I get 99 in MP and raise to $10. The woman to my left who minraised KK to $12 minraised me to $20. After everyone else folded I looked at her and said, "I believe you!" and folded. She showed me KK and mucked.

Several orbits of not getting dealt any playable hands later my stack was down to $40 so I got up and moved to the LHE table (where, incidentally, I won it all back and more).

Thoughts on my play and my notes will be appreciated.
I wouldn't bet the flop with Q9o on JT3tt. Little FE, and likely not nearly as much hand equity as we think if someone has a flush draw.

The 99 hand is all about remaining stacks. Thanks to the minraise, we're already getting immediate odds of 3:1. Her minraise before was a monster, so likely it's a monster now that won't be able to fold postflop (although she will probably not pay off with KK on A high boards, etc.). If we have like $100 or so back (for like 13 or so implied odds), I'm probably calling to setmine, and dumping it if we have much less. ETA: Good fold with our small $60 stack size.

What stakes are you playing LHE? The smallest stakes Limit games are basically unbeatable due to rake.

GimoG
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:56 PM   #138
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

I play $4/$8LHE. I don't have the results to back this up (my loss rate over the last 5 years is about $6 an hour), but I believe that if someone reads SSHE by Sklansky/Malmuth/Miller from cover to cover over and over and truly puts in the effort to apply himself to improving his game, said person could make $8 per hour in the games where 4 to 6 people limp into every pot, 2 or 3 players coldcall an OOP raise, nobody raises without two pair or better and nobody folds one pair or any 4+out draw before the river. Games like those definitely exist.
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Old 05-23-2017, 04:16 PM   #139
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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I play $4/$8LHE. I don't have the results to back this up (my loss rate over the last 5 years is about $6 an hour), but I believe that if someone reads SSHE by Sklansky/Malmuth/Miller from cover to cover over and over and truly puts in the effort to apply himself to improving his game, said person could make $8 per hour in the games where 4 to 6 people limp into every pot, 2 or 3 players coldcall an OOP raise, nobody raises without two pair or better and nobody folds one pair or any 4+out draw before the river. Games like those definitely exist.
SSHE is definitely the low stakes limit bible, that's for sure.

I booked $7.09/hr over 466 hours of 4/8 Limit. However, (a) fairly lol sample size, (b) our game was a kill game, so every ~10th hand was at 8/16 stakes which helps outrun the rake, and (c) our maximum rake at the time was quite low $3 + $1 BBJdrop (keeping in mind that every $1 increase in maximum rake probably takes upwards of $2/hr off your winrate if you're winning ~2 hands/hour).

Depending on all these factors, it's probably just *barely* beatable for popcans/hour. My guess is low stakes NL games (even shortstacking games) have the potential for a better return.

But I do recall having quite a lot of fun in those games as compared to NL (I think the "fun" in NL is measured in different metrics), so each to their own.

GimoG
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:25 PM   #140
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

How was the typical competition in the games you played? Was it like what I described in my post above?
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:55 AM   #141
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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How was the typical competition in the games you played? Was it like what I described in my post above?
Yup, very similar. Course I put in all my 4/8 Limit hours before 2010, so depending on how long it has been running in your market it's possible the game has changed. Limit is pretty much dead in our market.

GlongliveLimit,RIP,imoG
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:22 PM   #142
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

One thing the shortstack section of Ed Miller's book doesn't address is what hands to open-raise from the blinds after, say, 2 limpers, 3 limpers, 5 limpers etc. and what betsizing to use.

It seems like since nobody's shown any strength we can use the same range we'd use from the CO and BTN: ATso+, KQso+, 77+.

And by the way, that would be our open-raising range from the CO or button regardless of the number of limpers around to us, yes?

Thoughts?

Last edited by DalTXColtsFan; 05-25-2017 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 05-25-2017, 08:12 PM   #143
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
One thing the shortstack section of Ed Miller's book doesn't address is what hands to open-raise from the blinds after, say, 2 limpers, 3 limpers, 5 limpers etc. and what betsizing to use.

It seems like since nobody's shown any strength we can use the same range we'd use from the CO and BTN: ATso+, KQso+, 77+.

And by the way, that would be our open-raising range from the CO or button regardless of the number of limpers around to us, yes?

Thoughts?
Our raising range from the blinds should be far tighter than our raising range from LP. FWIW, my LP raising range would look nothing like the range you posted.

Also, with shorter stacks (ie 40bbs) I'd be much more apt to limp and see a flop with many hands that i'd be more likely to raise with if I was deeper.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:55 AM   #144
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

I'm still practicing online - mostly Global Poker at the $.02/.04 and .05/.10 tables. I would like to post some simple hands just as a sanity check - some of these I won, some I lost (I won't say which was which to avoid ROT), just interested in whether or not I made the right DECISIONS:

1. 34bb, raise AKo to 5bb UTG, 2 callers, flop A54, c-bet pot, get raised all in, call
2. 43bb, raise AKo to 8bb on BTN after 2 limpers, BB calls as do both limpers. Flop 766tt. One of the limpers donks 10bb. I fold.
3. 26bb, JJ on the button, 3-bet all in against an HJ 4bb open.
4. 38bb, CO limps, SB raises to 5bb, 3-bet AKo to 18bb from the BB, both call, flop 345r, SB donks 1bb (!!!), I shove
5. 29bb, MP opens to 5bb, I have AQo in the SB and fold
6. 23bb, 3 limpers around to me, I'm on the CO with A7s and limp along, SB completes BB checks. I flop KT3 with two of my suit. Checks around to me and I bet pot intending to get the rest of my stack in.
7. 37bb, BB with A9s. MJ minraises, 2 coldcalls, SB coldcalls and I call. Flop comes A72r. SB checks, I check, MJ c-bets 8bb and I re-raise all in.

Any glaring holes so far?

Last edited by DalTXColtsFan; 06-11-2017 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:11 AM   #145
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
I'm still practicing online - mostly Global Poker at the $.02/.04 and .05/.10 tables. I would like to post some simple hands just as a sanity check - some of these I won, some I lost (I won't say which was which to avoid ROT), just interested in whether or not I made the right DECISIONS:

1. 34bb, raise AKo to 5bb UTG, 2 callers, flop A54, c-bet pot, get raised all in, call
2. 43bb, raise AKo to 8bb on BTN after 2 limpers, BB calls as do both limpers. Flop 766tt. One of the limpers donks 10bb. I fold.
3. 26bb, JJ on the button, 3-bet all in against an HJ 4bb open.
4. 38bb, CO limps, SB raises to 5bb, 3-bet AKo to 18bb from the BB, both call, flop 345r, SB donks 1bb (!!!), I shove
5. 29bb, MP opens to 5bb, I have AQo in the SB and fold
6. 23bb, 3 limpers around to me, I'm on the CO with A7s and limp along, SB completes BB checks. I flop KT3 with two of my suit. Checks around to me and I bet pot intending to get the rest of my stack in.
7. 37bb, BB with A9s. MJ minraises, 2 coldcalls, SB coldcalls and I call. Flop comes A72r. SB checks, I check, MJ c-bets 8bb and I re-raise all in.

Any glaring holes so far?
I think like always reads are important but barring any read whatsoever...

2) I shove
4) I shove preflop
5) I shove preflop
7) Questionable...cant decide. I might just check/fold

I agree with the rest.
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:04 PM   #146
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
I'm still practicing online - mostly Global Poker at the $.02/.04 and .05/.10 tables. I would like to post some simple hands just as a sanity check - some of these I won, some I lost (I won't say which was which to avoid ROT), just interested in whether or not I made the right DECISIONS:

1. 34bb, raise AKo to 5bb UTG, 2 callers, flop A54, c-bet pot, get raised all in, call
2. 43bb, raise AKo to 8bb on BTN after 2 limpers, BB calls as do both limpers. Flop 766tt. One of the limpers donks 10bb. I fold.
3. 26bb, JJ on the button, 3-bet all in against an HJ 4bb open.
4. 38bb, CO limps, SB raises to 5bb, 3-bet AKo to 18bb from the BB, both call, flop 345r, SB donks 1bb (!!!), I shove
5. 29bb, MP opens to 5bb, I have AQo in the SB and fold
6. 23bb, 3 limpers around to me, I'm on the CO with A7s and limp along, SB completes BB checks. I flop KT3 with two of my suit. Checks around to me and I bet pot intending to get the rest of my stack in.
7. 37bb, BB with A9s. MJ minraises, 2 coldcalls, SB coldcalls and I call. Flop comes A72r. SB checks, I check, MJ c-bets 8bb and I re-raise all in.

Any glaring holes so far?
123 looks good
4, I would call pre or shove
5, Fold or shove depends on the player pfr%
6 fold pre
7 fold the flop imo
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:17 PM   #147
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Thanks for the advice as always.

An update, more for conversation than for actual advice seeking:

I'm back to basically exclusively practicing the shortstack strategy on Global Poker, mostly at the .02/.04 and .05/.10 tables. There are a few reasons for that. First, I'm still making clear mistakes (a.k.a. learning experiences) and I'd rather make them where the mistakes cost me $1.60 or $4 instead of where they'll cost me $80 or $120. Also, I'm still finding boredom a formidable obstacle. It's interesting that you both mentioned reads. If I could play one table at a time online, I could pay attention to all of the players and make notes on them, but I last maybe 20 or 25 minutes playing the shortstack strategy at only one table before I get bored and open another one. And another one. And another one. I usually end up playing 4, which means I'm essentially playing every hand readless. Not an excuse, I could still at least periodically take notes, i.e. when a player raises UTG and then calls my button shove with KQs that's a note worth taking and a player worth marking. But I'm not even doing that.

tl;dr, I've got some work to do on the "taking it seriously" front before I think about trying NL at a casino again.

I appreciate the help erst the while.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:07 AM   #148
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Try moving up a level and short stacking. You wouldn't be so bored because you would be more interested in paying attention to the game
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