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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old Yesterday, 07:48 AM   #101
DC2LV
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k View Post
100 percent do not agree with the first sentence. Surprised you wrote it as much as you play.

If it's folded to you on the button, raising to $10 is a mistake. Raise to $8 or $9 and here's why: Once the pot gets to $20, any place with a BB/promotional drop you are losing $2 by allowing the pot to get that big. Keep the put to less than $20 to reduce the rake at this point. $9 makes the pot $19 if the SB folds and BB calls. $8 makes it $18 if SB calls and BB folds. Kinda have to realize which one of them is more likely to call.
That's simply not (necessarily) true. As Mike already pointed out, where he plays there is a no flop no drop policy. That's also the case at one of the rooms in SoFla where I play. Moreover, some rooms here take the full $2 promo drop once the pot reaches $10, not $20. In fact, I play at one room that takes the $2 promo drop at $10 even when there is no flop. So when playing $2/$5 for example, and it's folded to you on the button and you make a play to steal the blinds, the house keeps $3 ($1 rake + $2 promo), and gives you the remaining $4.
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Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM   #102
sai1b0ats
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by fluxboy View Post
I assure you I am not qualified to carry that man's yoga mat, but thank you for the kind words.

I did read his book "Elements of Poker" many moons ago, and was heavily influenced by his thoughts. I had friends that played poker, and were clearly better than me, yet were unsuccessful. And it became obvious that if I could always play my A-game, even a simple, SS strategy, I would accumulate more EV than a brilliant player who decimates with his A-game, but loses multiples of that tilted.

Bonus: As a shortstacker in a live game, provided you follow the script you never really play good or bad. You simply play.



It appears reasonable, however the c-bet of 7bb requires that you then play poker on the turn. This is a terrible thing to impose upon a mere mortal. As any 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, Q, K or A could complete a hand that beats you.

That's, like, 96% of the deck.

Unless you have some deep-seated psychological imbalances, I don't really see the merit in putting yourself in this predicament. But then again, we all play for different reasons, and I suppose self-flagellation is as valid as any.

Nonetheless, if I may offer a suggestion ...

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
- Sun Tzu


Let's assume he calls with a straight draw and we are stacking off with any turn card. A straight draw requires 4.8 : 1 odds on the turn. Thus 4.8 x 7bb = 33.6 bb. The total pot he can win is 15.5 bb + 35.5 bb = 49 bb. So you are essentially giving him 49 bb - 33.6 bb = 15.4 bb every time you make this play.

Let's say he has two overcards, he now requires 6.8 : 1 odds. Thus 6.8 x 7 = 47.6 bb. You have 49. You are now giving him 1.4 bb. Better, but on a long enough timeline you go broke with 100% certainty.

***

Try this instead:

Bet the pot on the flop.

Is he on a straight draw? 13.5 bb x 4.8 = 64.8 bb. He loses 64.8 - 49 = 15.8 bb every time he makes this call.

Does he have overcards? 13.5 x 6.8 = 91.8 bb. He loses 42.8bb every time he makes this call.

It doesn't matter what comes on the turn, he has already lost.

***

Now you may well argue that a competent player would never call a draw with those odds, but they do. Everyone on this forum has. Phil Ivey has. We simply have to follow the script, hour after hour, and give our opponents the opportunity to fall into error.

It's simply a matter of time, pressure, and a little discipline.

All the best,
Flux
I agree with potting the flop, but your math shows that calling costs more than the amount of the call, so you either have an error there, or I'm not understanding what you're measuring.
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Old Yesterday, 09:26 AM   #103
fluxboy
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Hey Boats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
I agree with potting the flop, but your math shows that calling costs more than the amount of the call, so you either have an error there, or I'm not understanding what you're measuring.
I expressed that poorly and incorrectly.

Quote:
Bet the pot on the flop.

Is he on a straight draw? 13.5 bb x 4.8 = 64.8 bb. He loses 64.8 - 49 = 15.8 bb every time he makes this call.

Does he have overcards? 13.5 x 6.8 = 91.8 bb. He loses 42.8bb every time he makes this call.
It would be more accurate to say the total pot size to be won must be 15.8 bb and 42.8 bb larger for our villain not to make a -EV call.

Hm ..

I still don't like how that sounds. Someone help me out here.

Best,
Flux
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Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM   #104
Tomark
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by fluxboy View Post
The other night a good natured drunk sat at my table. Positioning myself to his immediate right, my favorite spot, we bonded. In short order, he was paying my straddle, and double-straddling it.

He was having a blast.

I have always encouraged people to have fun at my table. People have different needs. And if you meet them, they will meet yours.

The one area I would caution, however, is being clear on your objectives. I confess that playing for fun isn't mine. I do other things for fun. To me, poker is a discipline. And my needs are met by the degree to which I can maintain that discipline. So while tipping, limping, drinking, completing the small blind, and a host of other losing plays may pass the time, I consider that a toxic form of entertainment.

I would also further caution the degree to which these indulgences impact your ability to be a winning player. On paper, a few cents here and there may well appear negligible, but we do not exist in a vacuum. We are creatures of habit. Those habits define us. We become our function. Every indulgence multiplies the next.

That's fine if you wish to indulge, its not if that indulgence is antithetical to your goals.

***


The drunk guy is very likely losing $50+ an hour. It is incredibly unlikely he is having $70/hr+ more fun dollars than me. There is a balance, as it stands, im making $16/hr lifetime (considerably more recently) and im 100% sure im having more than $6/hr of fun than i would with your strategy.

as i originally said, it depends on what you find fun, but youre admitting you arent having fun. Congrats on your $40k/year with no benefits job i guess?

Quote:
As an experiment, for those who place a higher premium on winning than having fun, don't drink, tip, limp or complete the sb for the next 100 hours.
If you arent tipping, theres our wnrate difference, and you are scum.
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Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM   #105
sai1b0ats
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxboy View Post
Hey Boats!



I expressed that poorly and incorrectly.



It would be more accurate to say the total pot size to be won must be 15.8 bb and 42.8 bb larger for our villain not to make a -EV call.

Hm ..

I still don't like how that sounds. Someone help me out here.

Best,
Flux
I'll look at it later when I'm not on my phone. Anyway, agree with pot flop and shove turn.
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Old Yesterday, 08:22 PM   #106
fluxboy
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Hi guys,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomark View Post
DIE SHORTSTACKER DIE!
fyp

Quote:
Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
I'll look at it later when I'm not on my phone. Anyway, agree with pot flop and shove turn.
Yes, I am quite comfortable with the advice offered on simplifying your play, and the general approach to implementing a short stack strategy in a live environment. However, I would be delighted if someone could help improve my understanding of equity and expected value.

Let's take the example given:
  • 13.5 bb in the pot.
  • 35.5 bb left in our stack.
  • We have an overpair.
  • Villain has a straight draw on the flop.
How much should we bet on the flop so that a turn shove is never negative EV?

Here's what I do:

I take the pot size, add my remaining stack size (or whatever the smallest effective stack size is), and divide by the odds to determine the bare minimum flop bet.

35.5 bb + 13.5 bb = 49 bb / 5 = 9.8 bb

Questions:
  1. If I simply shove the flop, I likely pick up the pot uncontested. 13.5 bb -4.5 bb (our initial wager) = 9 bb profit.
  2. If I make a break-even bet of 9.8 bb, have I now given the villain sufficient odds to erase any profit in the hand (assuming I shove all turns)?
  3. Does each dollar above the break-even bet, increase my EV in direct proportion? For instance, does a 10.8 bb bet, offer me 1 bb in increased EV?
***

Now, this all may sound a bit curious that someone who has played thousands of hours of poker, and made nearly six figures, still has a shabby understanding of EV. But I like to think of it in another way:

If a bad player, with a poor understanding of math, using the simplest of strategies, can do well ...

Imagine what you could make?

All the best,
Flux
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Old Today, 03:12 AM   #107
Tomark
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Ok so you didnt deny that you dont tip, so I can only assume you dont.

I think the poker community should invest their time in explaining the need and reason for following proper tipping ettiquite rather than trying to teach you about expected value. You are receiving a service, and you arent paying for it.
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Old Today, 03:28 AM   #108
ibelieveyouoweme$80k
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC2LV View Post
That's simply not (necessarily) true. As Mike already pointed out, where he plays there is a no flop no drop policy. That's also the case at one of the rooms in SoFla where I play. Moreover, some rooms here take the full $2 promo drop once the pot reaches $10, not $20. In fact, I play at one room that takes the $2 promo drop at $10 even when there is no flop. So when playing $2/$5 for example, and it's folded to you on the button and you make a play to steal the blinds, the house keeps $3 ($1 rake + $2 promo), and gives you the remaining $4.
You're right. I was referring to getting 1 caller preflop with my sizing. Thus having to see a flop. Obviously, I can raise to $100 preflop if there isn't a flop. Really thought this was pretty obvious, but I guess people need everything spelled out.
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Old Today, 08:25 AM   #109
DalTXColtsFan
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomark View Post
Ok so you didnt deny that you dont tip, so I can only assume you dont.

I think the poker community should invest their time in explaining the need and reason for following proper tipping ettiquite rather than trying to teach you about expected value. You are receiving a service, and you arent paying for it.
As much as I've appreciated fluxboy's advice and participation in this thread, I was stunned when he said "don't tip for 100 hours" and I'm even more stunned now that it seems like he was serious. Having to explain to someone why it's a good idea to tip the dealer when you win a hand is like having to explain to someone that it's a lot easier to go through a door if you open it first.
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Old Today, 08:53 AM   #110
Lapidator
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Flux, crushing the hell out of this thread.
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Old Today, 08:58 AM   #111
bwslim69
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k View Post
100 percent do not agree with the first sentence. Surprised you wrote it as much as you play.

If it's folded to you on the button, raising to $10 is a mistake. Raise to $8 or $9 and here's why: Once the pot gets to $20, any place with a BB/promotional drop you are losing $2 by allowing the pot to get that big. Keep the put to less than $20 to reduce the rake at this point. $9 makes the pot $19 if the SB folds and BB calls. $8 makes it $18 if SB calls and BB folds. Kinda have to realize which one of them is more likely to call.
Chip is this really ur strat or are you joshing?
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