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Old 04-21-2017, 09:30 AM   #76
MikeStarr
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k View Post
100 percent do not agree with the first sentence. Surprised you wrote it as much as you play.

If it's folded to you on the button, raising to $10 is a mistake. Raise to $8 or $9 and here's why: Once the pot gets to $20, any place with a BB/promotional drop you are losing $2 by allowing the pot to get that big. Keep the put to less than $20 to reduce the rake at this point. $9 makes the pot $19 if the SB folds and BB calls. $8 makes it $18 if SB calls and BB folds. Kinda have to realize which one of them is more likely to call.
I dont play 1/2 so Ill defer on this stuff but this sounds ridiculous to me. Where I play there is a no flop no drop policy. Im guessing that a slightly bigger raise from the button will result in more preflop folds allowing me to steal the blinds uncontested often enough with a junk hand that it makes up for the possible lost $2 jackpot drop. Especially since if the $2 jackpot drop is going to be taken no matter what if there is any flop action.

I open $10 from the button and a blind calls 150% of the time.
You open $9 and a blind calls 20% of the time.

Do some math on jackpot drop and rake. And dont forget to include the jackpot drop on whatever percentage of times there is flop action on your extra 5% of hands where theres a flop.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:20 PM   #77
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by Tomark View Post
(im somewhat joking. Everyone has fun in different ways, and maybe you find the mechanical nature of your game soothing. But if youre playing for fun, and you arent having a whole lot of fun, you should seriously consider playing full, and if youre doing better than break even, screw the winrate, your hobby doesnt need to also earn you $22/hr)
Like you said, everyone has fun in different ways (and I don't believe Flux ever stated whether he was or was not having fun). Personally, I find the challenge of attempting to implement a winning strategy fun (as well as just sitting at the poker table in general on my day off). Pretty sure I'd be maximizing my fun if implementing my strategy led to a 10bb/hr+ winrate, which it looks like his is doing.

GnothavingquiteasmuchfunthisyearG
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:28 PM   #78
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Fun is subjective....
It was fun last night when I rivered a boat and stacked an omc for 200bb...
It wasn't fun when some noob lag called flop and turn when I had the nut straight only to river a boat.....
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:47 PM   #79
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Ha, like winners, my guess is that there might actually be very few people in the game having fun in the long term. At least, it is sometimes very hard to tell.

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Old 04-21-2017, 02:03 PM   #80
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
40bb effective stacks, a tight player opens to 5bb from UTG+1, folds around to us in the CO with AQo. 3-bet intending to call a shove or fold? I assume 3-bet folding is not an option.
ive played tons of 40bb poker. AQ is a fold here. its not even close. clear cut fold.

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Well if you dont like the accepting nature of the community towards your shortstacking, heres a guy who doesnt accept your perverse lifestyle.

This is so gross. $22/hr is great, certainly near the best you can do at low stakes. I am surprised to hear your preflop raise size is so small, but I wouldnt question it, the results spesk for themselves. I would absolutely hate to have you at my casino.

The reason I have an issue with your gameplay isnt that I think you can win more, its that I think you can have more fun (and also not ruin everyone else's fun). Poker is a fun exciting game with deep complicated decisions. Your poker is about as complicated as bingo, and my decision making against you would also be about as complicated as bingo (and, notably, id be forced to lose money to you in order to play the far more fun deepstacked poker game).

Im all for shortstacked as a way to learn the game and observe, but I dont see the point in doing it for this may hours. Personally i cant see how playing such a grating heartless style over thousands of hours doesnt crush your soul.

(im somewhat joking. Everyone has fun in different ways, and maybe you find the mechanical nature of your game soothing. But if youre playing for fun, and you arent having a whole lot of fun, you should seriously consider playing full, and if youre doing better than break even, screw the winrate, your hobby doesnt need to also earn you $22/hr)
this post is garbage. "screw the winrate". lol. winning money is fun.
do you really believe making complicated decisions and making less money is more fun? dude if someone paid me 10k an hour to stare at a wall, I guarantee you i would have a blast doing it.

you can still have fun at the poker table without complicated decisions.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:11 PM   #81
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

If someone paid me $22/hr to stare at a blank wall I'd gouge my eyes out. BTW, I don't believe you would have fun. You would do it for the money but there is nothing fun about staring at a blank wall.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:15 PM   #82
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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If someone paid me $22/hr to stare at a blank wall I'd gouge my eyes out. BTW, I don't believe you would have fun. You would do it for the money but there is nothing fun about staring at a blank wall.
yeah people who meditate don't enjoy it. just sitting there doing nothing.....WRONG. and getting paid a bunch of money in the process. maybe you wouldn't enjoy it because you have a bad mindset.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:48 PM   #83
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Staring at a blank wall isn't remotely comparable to shortstacking poker fun-wise.

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Old 04-21-2017, 09:51 PM   #84
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Staring at a blank wall isn't remotely comparable to shortstacking poker fun-wise.

Gifyouthinkso,youaredoingoneofthemwrongG

Well ...

Board texture has less relevance in shortstacking. However, I find the repressed childhood trauma and rage bubbling up in both endeavors equally pervasive.

So that's a perk.

I spent some time in Asia, staring at walls, sleeping a few hours a day, eating plants. Walking, sitting, breathing. That sort of thing. Its easier to find a moment of grace there than here, admittedly, but I do enjoy a challenge.

There are different reasons for playing, of course. Most who play 1-2 aren't there to make money. They think they are, but that clearly isn't the case. I would say that as a general observation, there is a strong correlation between emotional players and negative win rates.

Quote:
...you can still have fun at the poker table without complicated decisions.
Very true.

As of late, I have taken to illusions. I have found that making coins disappear is very valuable at the table. Saves a ton of driving, and is easier on the environment. And is kinda fun.

Initially, I was only palming those .50 pieces you always give to dealers. You'd be surprised how much they stack up. Then I moved on to $1 chips, and now $5. As with all things, its a skill that grows with time.

Every live shortstacker should checkout youtube, there's a number of tutorials on the topic. It's really everyone's responsibility to lower their carbon footprint.

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I would absolutely hate to have you at my casino
Did I mention I do magic?



All in good fun,
Flux
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:37 AM   #85
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by fluxboy View Post
Every live shortstacker should checkout youtube, there's a number of tutorials on the topic.
Any in particular you suggest, particularly those where they discuss ranges by position?

How would you play 99 UTG at a 9-handed table where most of the players are LP?
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Old 04-23-2017, 12:59 AM   #86
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
Any in particular you suggest, particularly those where they discuss ranges by position?

How would you play 99 UTG at a 9-handed table where most of the players are LP?
Raise.
  • Open raise 10% of your stack size.
Flop:
  • Heads up, c-bet.
  • 3 way, c-bet dry flop (paired flops, or flops with two low cards and one high).
  • Otherwise, check and fold if you don't hit.
  • If you do hit (have top pair or better, or a good draw) just pot the flop and put the rest in on the turn, irrespective of the turn card. If potting the flop commits half your stack, or more, simply go all-in.
  • Ignore what anyone else is doing.

Actually, that's what you do with all hands.

As for hand ranges from positions, I don't bother with that. I play the same card range UTG as I do on the button.

Easy game.

Best,
Flux

(ps I will mention again, this is probably not *good* poker, but as you know that's not my thing.)

(pps I'm gonna disappear again. Take care everyone. I will wander back in a thousand hours or so to give another update. Cheerio!)
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:48 AM   #87
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Your raise sizing strategy is pretty awful.
You misspelled perfect.
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:49 AM   #88
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by fluxboy View Post
Raise.
  • Open raise 10% of your stack size.
Flop:
  • Heads up, c-bet.
  • 3 way, c-bet dry flop (paired flops, or flops with two low cards and one high).
  • Otherwise, check and fold if you don't hit.
  • If you do hit (have top pair or better, or a good draw) just pot the flop and put the rest in on the turn, irrespective of the turn card. If potting the flop commits half your stack, or more, simply go all-in.
  • Ignore what anyone else is doing.

Actually, that's what you do with all hands.

As for hand ranges from positions, I don't bother with that. I play the same card range UTG as I do on the button.

Easy game.

Best,
Flux

(ps I will mention again, this is probably not *good* poker, but as you know that's not my thing.)

(pps I'm gonna disappear again. Take care everyone. I will wander back in a thousand hours or so to give another update. Cheerio!)
Congrats on the win rate. Very impressive.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:30 AM   #89
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I open $10 from the button and a blind calls 150% of the time.
So he calls 100% of the time that you open and 50% of the times you DON'T open? Wow, can you let me know where he's going to play so I can get the seat 2 seats to his right?
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:15 PM   #90
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
So he calls 100% of the time that you open and 50% of the times you DON'T open? Wow, can you let me know where he's going to play so I can get the seat 2 seats to his right?
It should say 15% obviously
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:39 AM   #91
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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this post is garbage. "screw the winrate". lol. winning money is fun.
do you really believe making complicated decisions and making less money is more fun? dude if someone paid me 10k an hour to stare at a wall, I guarantee you i would have a blast doing it.

you can still have fun at the poker table without complicated decisions.
I did specifically state if youre at least break even. And the guy is making $22/hr, not $10k. I make far more at my job than at poker, and using your ridiculous theory, why would I ever do something like go to the movies? its losing me money after all!

My friends and I have a theory referred to as "fun dollars". Making money is inherently fun, and thus we value our "fun" at the approximate dollar rate that we are "earning" fun dollars. If you sum your actual earnings (or cost) to fun dollars, you get your total value of an experience.

As an example, I would find this shortstack strategy described as being near zero fun dollars (a subjective value I give to it) and so id be earning $22/hr. My current playstyle is prolly $25/hr in fun dollars, and an additional $20/hr in actual earnings, netting me a $45/hr earnings. A very select few movies earn me $45/hr after costs which is why i nearly never go.

Poker without second level thinking isnt really poker. You are taking a thought provoking, infinitely deep, wounderful puzzle, and turning it into an obsessive formulaic rote mindless ordeal.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:40 AM   #92
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

So Tomark you're saying that you have to calculate the EV of playing EV or not EV and calculate which EV has the most EV? Now I've seen everything on 2+2! I'm sensing a sequel to the movie Inception
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:18 AM   #93
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by Tomark View Post
I did specifically state if youre at least break even. And the guy is making $22/hr, not $10k. I make far more at my job than at poker, and using your ridiculous theory, why would I ever do something like go to the movies? its losing me money after all!

My friends and I have a theory referred to as "fun dollars". Making money is inherently fun, and thus we value our "fun" at the approximate dollar rate that we are "earning" fun dollars. If you sum your actual earnings (or cost) to fun dollars, you get your total value of an experience.

As an example, I would find this shortstack strategy described as being near zero fun dollars (a subjective value I give to it) and so id be earning $22/hr. My current playstyle is prolly $25/hr in fun dollars, and an additional $20/hr in actual earnings, netting me a $45/hr earnings. A very select few movies earn me $45/hr after costs which is why i nearly never go.

Poker without second level thinking isnt really poker. You are taking a thought provoking, infinitely deep, wounderful puzzle, and turning it into an obsessive formulaic rote mindless ordeal.
I really like this post, thanks Tomark.

One area I think this comes up a lot is completing the SB, which is the discussion in another thread. Completing the SB with most hands is probably a bad decision EV-wise, and maybe costs you 10 cents on average or some similar low but still present number. However, playing hands is fun! The reason people (even reasonably good players) complete on the SB probably isn't because they think they're going to make money in the long run with it, it's because playing is more fun than not and it only costs $1.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:46 AM   #94
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
I really like this post, thanks Tomark.

One area I think this comes up a lot is completing the SB, which is the discussion in another thread. Completing the SB with most hands is probably a bad decision EV-wise, and maybe costs you 10 cents on average or some similar low but still present number. However, playing hands is fun! The reason people (even reasonably good players) complete on the SB probably isn't because they think they're going to make money in the long run with it, it's because playing is more fun than not and it only costs $1.
For whatever it's worth to this discussion Alan schoomaker addresses this topic in detail in his book the psychology of poker. He more or less agrees with tomark but of course goes into a lot more detail about various motivations for playing.

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Old 04-24-2017, 01:28 PM   #95
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

A couple more thoughts, fwiw ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
For whatever it's worth to this discussion Alan schoomaker addresses this topic in detail in his book the psychology of poker. He more or less agrees with tomark but of course goes into a lot more detail about various motivations for playing.
I actually had a coaching session with Alan. I really enjoyed our discussion. Anyway, he mentioned that I had made more money at poker than some of his clients who have written books on the topic.

I found that amusing. He wouldn't tell me who.

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
One area I think this comes up a lot is completing the SB, which is the discussion in another thread. Completing the SB with most hands is probably a bad decision EV-wise, and maybe costs you 10 cents on average or some similar low but still present number. However, playing hands is fun! The reason people (even reasonably good players) complete on the SB probably isn't because they think they're going to make money in the long run with it, it's because playing is more fun than not and it only costs $1.
The other night a good natured drunk sat at my table. Positioning myself to his immediate right, my favorite spot, we bonded. In short order, he was paying my straddle, and double-straddling it.

He was having a blast.

I have always encouraged people to have fun at my table. People have different needs. And if you meet them, they will meet yours.

The one area I would caution, however, is being clear on your objectives. I confess that playing for fun isn't mine. I do other things for fun. To me, poker is a discipline. And my needs are met by the degree to which I can maintain that discipline. So while tipping, limping, drinking, completing the small blind, and a host of other losing plays may pass the time, I consider that a toxic form of entertainment.

I would also further caution the degree to which these indulgences impact your ability to be a winning player. On paper, a few cents here and there may well appear negligible, but we do not exist in a vacuum. We are creatures of habit. Those habits define us. We become our function. Every indulgence multiplies the next.

That's fine if you wish to indulge, its not if that indulgence is antithetical to your goals.

***

As an experiment, for those who place a higher premium on winning than having fun, don't drink, tip, limp or complete the sb for the next 100 hours.

See what that does for your win rate.

All the best,
Flux
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Old 04-24-2017, 01:42 PM   #96
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by fluxboy View Post
A couple more thoughts, fwiw ...



I actually had a coaching session with Alan. I really enjoyed our discussion. Anyway, he mentioned that I had made more money at poker than some of his clients who have written books on the topic.

I found that amusing. He wouldn't tell me who.



The other night a good natured drunk sat at my table. Positioning myself to his immediate right, my favorite spot, we bonded. In short order, he was paying my straddle, and double-straddling it.

He was having a blast.

I have always encouraged people to have fun at my table. People have different needs. And if you meet them, they will meet yours.

The one area I would caution, however, is being clear on your objectives. I confess that playing for fun isn't mine. I do other things for fun. To me, poker is a discipline. And my needs are met by the degree to which I can maintain that discipline. So while tipping, limping, drinking, completing the small blind, and a host of other losing plays may pass the time, I consider that a toxic form of entertainment.

I would also further caution the degree to which these indulgences impact your ability to be a winning player. On paper, a few cents here and there may well appear negligible, but we do not exist in a vacuum. We are creatures of habit. Those habits define us. We become our function. Every indulgence multiplies the next.

That's fine if you wish to indulge, its not if that indulgence is antithetical to your goals.

***

As an experiment, for those who place a higher premium on winning than having fun, don't drink, tip, limp or complete the sb for the next 100 hours.

See what that does for your win rate.

All the best,
Flux
Agreed with all of this. If your main or only goal is to make money playing poker, then you should do things differently than I do. If I want to make money, I'll work. I play poker to have a good time. Now making money is more fun than losing money, just like winning is more fun than losing, so I can't go crazy. But I'm happy to do things that are -EV (completing SB, drinking, etc.) but make my time at the table more enjoyable. If I weren't still winning I'd probably reevaluate.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:30 PM   #97
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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Originally Posted by fluxboy View Post
A couple more thoughts, fwiw ...



I actually had a coaching session with Alan. I really enjoyed our discussion. Anyway, he mentioned that I had made more money at poker than some of his clients who have written books on the topic.

I found that amusing. He wouldn't tell me who.



The other night a good natured drunk sat at my table. Positioning myself to his immediate right, my favorite spot, we bonded. In short order, he was paying my straddle, and double-straddling it.

He was having a blast.

I have always encouraged people to have fun at my table. People have different needs. And if you meet them, they will meet yours.

The one area I would caution, however, is being clear on your objectives. I confess that playing for fun isn't mine. I do other things for fun. To me, poker is a discipline. And my needs are met by the degree to which I can maintain that discipline. So while tipping, limping, drinking, completing the small blind, and a host of other losing plays may pass the time, I consider that a toxic form of entertainment.

I would also further caution the degree to which these indulgences impact your ability to be a winning player. On paper, a few cents here and there may well appear negligible, but we do not exist in a vacuum. We are creatures of habit. Those habits define us. We become our function. Every indulgence multiplies the next.

That's fine if you wish to indulge, its not if that indulgence is antithetical to your goals.

***

As an experiment, for those who place a higher premium on winning than having fun, don't drink, tip, limp or complete the sb for the next 100 hours.

See what that does for your win rate.

All the best,
Flux
You have either read Tommy Angelo often, or you are Tommy Angelo. 50/50 obv
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Old 04-24-2017, 07:20 PM   #98
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Typical 9-handed loose-passive table. Again, this is Global Poker but I'm guessing this is similar to what I would see at a live table (right or wrong).

40bb effective stacks.
1 limper around to me I'm on the button with JJ.
I raise the pot - 4.5bb.
sb calls, bb folds, limper calls.

Pot is 13.5bb Flop comes 762r with one heart. Checks to me and, with 35.5bb behind, I c-bet 7bb. Seems plenty on that reasonably raggedy board. SB folds, limper calls.

Pot is now 27.5bb and I have about 29bb behind.
Turn is a T which puts another heart on the board. If he has 89 he can have my money. I shove.

Did I play the hand correctly?
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:21 AM   #99
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

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You have either read Tommy Angelo often, or you are Tommy Angelo. 50/50 obv
I assure you I am not qualified to carry that man's yoga mat, but thank you for the kind words.

I did read his book "Elements of Poker" many moons ago, and was heavily influenced by his thoughts. I had friends that played poker, and were clearly better than me, yet were unsuccessful. And it became obvious that if I could always play my A-game, even a simple, SS strategy, I would accumulate more EV than a brilliant player who decimates with his A-game, but loses multiples of that tilted.

Bonus: As a shortstacker in a live game, provided you follow the script you never really play good or bad. You simply play.

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post

Pot is 13.5bb Flop comes 762r with one heart. Checks to me and, with 35.5bb behind, I c-bet 7bb. Seems plenty on that reasonably raggedy board. SB folds, limper calls.
It appears reasonable, however the c-bet of 7bb requires that you then play poker on the turn. This is a terrible thing to impose upon a mere mortal. As any 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, Q, K or A could complete a hand that beats you.

That's, like, 96% of the deck.

Unless you have some deep-seated psychological imbalances, I don't really see the merit in putting yourself in this predicament. But then again, we all play for different reasons, and I suppose self-flagellation is as valid as any.

Nonetheless, if I may offer a suggestion ...

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
- Sun Tzu


Let's assume he calls with a straight draw and we are stacking off with any turn card. A straight draw requires 4.8 : 1 odds on the turn. Thus 4.8 x 7bb = 33.6 bb. The total pot he can win is 15.5 bb + 35.5 bb = 49 bb. So you are essentially giving him 49 bb - 33.6 bb = 15.4 bb every time you make this play.

Let's say he has two overcards, he now requires 6.8 : 1 odds. Thus 6.8 x 7 = 47.6 bb. You have 49. You are now giving him 1.4 bb. Better, but on a long enough timeline you go broke with 100% certainty.

***

Try this instead:

Bet the pot on the flop.

Is he on a straight draw? 13.5 bb x 4.8 = 64.8 bb. He loses 64.8 - 49 = 15.8 bb every time he makes this call.

Does he have overcards? 13.5 x 6.8 = 91.8 bb. He loses 42.8bb every time he makes this call.

It doesn't matter what comes on the turn, he has already lost.

***

Now you may well argue that a competent player would never call a draw with those odds, but they do. Everyone on this forum has. Phil Ivey has. We simply have to follow the script, hour after hour, and give our opponents the opportunity to fall into error.

It's simply a matter of time, pressure, and a little discipline.

All the best,
Flux
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Old 04-25-2017, 07:36 AM   #100
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Re: Shortstacking in live NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
Agreed with all of this. If your main or only goal is to make money playing poker, then you should do things differently than I do. If I want to make money, I'll work. I play poker to have a good time. Now making money is more fun than losing money, just like winning is more fun than losing, so I can't go crazy. But I'm happy to do things that are -EV (completing SB, drinking, etc.) but make my time at the table more enjoyable. If I weren't still winning I'd probably reevaluate.
You and I have a very similar philosophy when it comes to playing poker. I play it as an enjoyable hobby, not as a way to supplement my income. If it wasn't fun, if it was a "grind," then I wouldn't go to the casino. But as with any hobby, I practice and study because being proficient makes the hobby that much more enjoyable. The money is only important as a means of keeping score as to how proficient one is or has become.
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