That's simply not (necessarily) true. As Mike already pointed out, where he plays there is a no flop no drop policy. That's also the case at one of the rooms in SoFla where I play. Moreover, some rooms here take the full $2 promo drop once the pot reaches $10, not $20. In fact, I play at one room that takes the $2 promo drop at $10 even when there is no flop. So when playing $2/$5 for example, and it's folded to you on the button and you make a play to steal the blinds, the house keeps $3 ($1 rake + $2 promo), and gives you the remaining $4.

I agree with potting the flop, but your math shows that calling costs more than the amount of the call, so you either have an error there, or I'm not understanding what you're measuring.

Hey Boats!

I expressed that poorly and incorrectly.

It would be more accurate to say the total pot size to be won must be 15.8 bb and 42.8 bb larger for our villain not to make a -EV call.

Hm ..

I still don't like how that sounds. Someone help me out here.

Best,
Flux

The drunk guy is very likely losing $50+ an hour. It is incredibly unlikely he is having $70/hr+ more fun dollars than me. There is a balance, as it stands, im making $16/hr lifetime (considerably more recently) and im 100% sure im having more than $6/hr of fun than i would with your strategy.

as i originally said, it depends on what you find fun, but youre admitting you arent having fun. Congrats on your $40k/year with no benefits job i guess?

If you arent tipping, theres our wnrate difference, and you are scum.

I'll look at it later when I'm not on my phone. Anyway, agree with pot flop and shove turn.

Hi guys,

fyp

Yes, I am quite comfortable with the advice offered on simplifying your play, and the general approach to implementing a short stack strategy in a live environment. However, I would be delighted if someone could help improve my understanding of equity and expected value.

Let's take the example given:

• 13.5 bb in the pot.
• 35.5 bb left in our stack.
• We have an overpair.
• Villain has a straight draw on the flop.

How much should we bet on the flop so that a turn shove is never negative EV?

Here's what I do:

I take the pot size, add my remaining stack size (or whatever the smallest effective stack size is), and divide by the odds to determine the bare minimum flop bet.

35.5 bb + 13.5 bb = 49 bb / 5 = 9.8 bb

Questions:

1. If I simply shove the flop, I likely pick up the pot uncontested. 13.5 bb -4.5 bb (our initial wager) = 9 bb profit.
   
2. If I make a break-even bet of 9.8 bb, have I now given the villain sufficient odds to erase any profit in the hand (assuming I shove all turns)?
   
3. Does each dollar above the break-even bet, increase my EV in direct proportion? For instance, does a 10.8 bb bet, offer me 1 bb in increased EV?

***

Now, this all may sound a bit curious that someone who has played thousands of hours of poker, and made nearly six figures, still has a shabby understanding of EV. But I like to think of it in another way:

If a bad player, with a poor understanding of math, using the simplest of strategies, can do well ...

Imagine what you could make?

All the best,
Flux

Ok so you didnt deny that you dont tip, so I can only assume you dont.

I think the poker community should invest their time in explaining the need and reason for following proper tipping ettiquite rather than trying to teach you about expected value. You are receiving a service, and you arent paying for it.

You're right. I was referring to getting 1 caller preflop with my sizing. Thus having to see a flop. Obviously, I can raise to $100 preflop if there isn't a flop. Really thought this was pretty obvious, but I guess people need everything spelled out.

As much as I've appreciated fluxboy's advice and participation in this thread, I was stunned when he said "don't tip for 100 hours" and I'm even more stunned now that it seems like he was serious. Having to explain to someone why it's a good idea to tip the dealer when you win a hand is like having to explain to someone that it's a lot easier to go through a door if you open it first.

Flux, crushing the hell out of this thread.

Chip is this really ur strat or are you joshing?

Hey guys,

Wait ... are we still talking about poker?

Did you guys miss the part where I also rathole chips with magic tricks?


***


Now where were we...

Right, objectives.

Years back when I was a professional cardcounter I would occasionally frequent public message boards to help out the struggling players. My advice, inevitably, fell on deaf ears. I found it odd that people would rather fail doing what they were doing, than challenge themselves in a way that might allow success.

I would ask what their objective was and before long it was clear their goal was not to succeed. It was to continue to fail within the confines of their identity.

And then they would wonder why they weren't succeeding.

Let's go back to my suggestion for 100 hours:

That's pretty tight and sweet, but let's add a little jazz:

Then watch your winrate climb by about 20%

When I did this, I made $32/hr. Yes, knuckleheads, this is a mission not a lifestyle. After 100 hours you can then give all the money to the dealers, or the homeless shelter, or the LGBTQIA+ society.

Whatever floats your boat.

That's not my concern. I just want you to win. What you do with the spoils of war from then on is your choice.

But at least you have one.

You know, way back when I started shortstacking, I was told if I tried that **** I would get killed. And aside from a minor incident in a parking lot at 3 AM with a spear gun, it's been smooth sailing the whole way.

I wish you all the same on your journey.

Excelsior!
Flux

(ps Now would someone please answer my goddamn EV question? Kthxbye)

Thanks for the kind words, but I do sincerely hope everyone is chuckling a little along the way. It just bothers me when people don't reach their potential due to an absence of amorality.

------

Chapter IX What is Noble:

He once said: "Under certain circumstances I love mankind"--and referred thereby to Ariadne, who was present;

"in my opinion man is an agreeable, brave, inventive animal, that has not his equal upon earth, he makes his way even through all labyrinths. I like man, and often think how I can still further advance him, and make him stronger, more evil, and more profound."-

-"Stronger, more evil, and more profound?" I asked in horror.

"Yes," he said again, "stronger, more evil, and more profound; also more beautiful"--and thereby the tempter-god smiled with his halcyon smile, as though he had just paid some charming compliment.

-Beyond Good and Evil, Friedrich Nietzsche

well what you are doing isnt poker. Its legal theft. You are stealing 10%+ of the dealer's salary by sitting at their table, and calling it a winrate. If you want the to keep the tips for yourself, maybe you should be a dealer.

consider, dealer as a career:

-its at the poker table
-huge winrate! >$22/hr
-dont have to tip anyone
-less boring than what youre doing right now
-dont have to leave after mkaing $100 thus allowing for longer "sessions"

Also, you shouldnt introduce yourself as a shortstacker. That isnt what you are. Youre a deadbeat. "hey guys check out my scrooge strategy. You can up your winrate by just letting tiny tim die. Try it for 100 hours"

Youre being a dick and calling it amorality. All in the name of a lowstakes winrate. what a joke. Guys like you never make any real money because youre penny wise and pound foolish. Basic human decency isnt a flaw and skipping out on every tip isnt exploiting a market inefficiency. It makes you unlikeable and makes no one take you seriously. The social rammifications of your actions have an opportunity cost with a real financial implication. Thats why a guy with a lower winrate than you can get a book deal.

Hi guys,

That's what she said!

"Now would someone please answer my goddamn EV question? Kthxbye"

Sure, Snowflake, let's take a look:

Yes, that's all correct and good. I would expect nothing less from a shortstacking god. However ...

1. Incorrect. Once money is in the pot, it's no longer yours. Fight for it, princess. If everyone folds, a shove returns 13.5 bb.

2. You have erased all profit above simply taking the pot with a shove. I know you have multiple degrees in the liberal arts, but this isn't basket weaving. Let's do a little remedial math from grade school:

EV = (W%*$W) – (L%*$L)
EV = (.83%*$23.3) - (.17*35.5)
EV = 19.34 - 6.04
EV = 13.3 bb

(Rounding errors account for the small discrepancy)

This is why when Colt posted the following:

He would have been better off simply shoving the flop, as opposed to doing a 1/2 pot bet + shove on the turn. Let's look at the math:

Shove gives us 13.5bb

EV = (W%*$W) – (L%*$L)
EV = (.83 * $20.5) - (.17 * $35.5)
EV = $17 - $6
EV = $11

His reasonable bet on a dry board with a shove on the turn cost him $2.50. That's, like, a tip for the dealers. You are robbing them of their future by making such boneheaded plays. Get it together, you heartless bastard.

3) Eh, sorta. You should really do the numbers if it means that much to you. It only takes two minutes. As a ballpark approximation, it works out in this scenario.

God you're a slacker.

***

Okay, that's it for this episode. Tune in tomorrow for more drama.

Cheerio!
Flux

So tipping is compulsory now?

RIP, thread.

Yeah, Tomark is posting very badly but I don't want to derail on that discussion.

Fluxboy is clearly smart and right about just about everything, even if I could never play like they do.

I will freely acknowledge that my internet sarcasm detector is not always up to snuff, but I can't believe you're even asking that question.

Thank you for the kind words, but I am all but certain my friends, family and colleagues would beg to differ.

This style of play has numerous drawbacks. Admittedly, it's not going to maximize your fun or profits at the table. I actually consider this another benefit of the strategy, but that may involve some explaining. We all play for different reasons. And one thing I do not play for is emotional or financial needs. Nor do I play for charity. My happiness is not dependent on the river card. My ego is not bolstered by a triple barrel bluff. There is absolutely nothing that can transpire during a poker session that in any way impacts my life. Even a tragic session where I drop my maximum allotment of three buy-ins, is irrelevant.

What's $300 when your bankroll is $90k+?

I was at a table the other night, and there was a man there who looked like he had just escaped the gulag. And he kept stating:

"This is what it's all about! It doesn't get any better than this!"

I was pleased that he was having fun, but I felt sorry for him that such a trivial pastime could impact his emotional and mental state. This silly little card game was his refuge from life. Irrespective of that river card, you return in a few hours to the life you've built. Inevitably, he was escorted out by security. In the 4000+ hours I have played, I have never felt animosity towards anyone while playing. I believe a few have had issues with me, but you can't take responsibility for another's happiness. All blow ups, meltdowns, and tilt reflect the mental state you bring to the table.

You could say that playing a shortstack strategy is a boring, confining strategy that reduces a complex beautiful game to algorithmic play. And if your objective is to be stimulated, you could end the analysis right there. Or not. Maybe it's through this algorithmic play that life in all its complexity and beauty can be reflected upon, unmarred by ego, distraction, and game theory. It's not a matter of seeking freedom from structure and discipline, it's through discipline and structure that freedom is found.

As with all things in life, it's simply a vehicle for enlightenment.

That's why I play, and I hope you do to.

And I think that's as good a note to end on as anything. Thank you for the feedback, the kind words, the indignation, and the laughs. Maybe we'll meet up at the table one day. I'll be the guy not playing any hands, with no money in front of him, getting run over, doubling up, heading for the door ...

And having the time of his life.



All the best twoplustwo.

Sincerely,
Fluxboy

So last night I buy into a 1/3 table for $100. 2 seats to my right is a woman also with a short stack, and a few more seats to her right is her husband. They're clearly just there to gamble - raising and min-3-betting a lot of hands, making strange bets and calls postflop etc.

The husband straddles (to $6 - he has about $225 behind). Folds around to me in the CO and I raise to $25 with AKo. Standard, right? The blinds fold and the straddler calls.

Flop comes Q86r. Straddler checks.

Now there's $54 in the pot and I have $75 behind. This is actually a SHOVE, not a check, yes? If I check, this villain is capable of betting me off a better hand with a draw and I won't know where I am. There's also a chance that he'll CALL with a worse hand - he's there to gamble after all and he's got $150 more behind if he calls and loses.

This is one of those spots where a shortstacker just has to get it in and say FML if the straddler straddle-called a Q, 8 or 6 (I guess he could have a pocket pair too), or if he has some draw like JT, J9, T9, 97 or 57 that has to get there, right? I'm USUALLY going to be ahead here, correct?

I would GII. Against any pair, without an A or K kicker we still have 6 outs (twice) and we are ~25%. We are drawing thin to 2p and we're dead to a set, but not many 2p make sense except 86s (only 2 combos) and maybe Q8s (again, only 2 combos).

I don't think any V is going to call and YOLO it with a worse hand and no equity, so we're really just trying to deny equity from no-pair draws or get V to make a bad fold with an 8 or 6.

I would raise slightly more preflop to setup a PSB shove on the flop, but otherwise, yup. Also, don't forget that we often have the best hand here (a shove is for protection / value). We also have FE against small pairs who will have a hard time calling (and if they do some of the time, we're still going to suck out 25% of the time, which is why I like setting things up for a PSB shove which gets us closer to giving us good odds to do this when combined with our FE).

GcluelessshortstackingnoobG

Thanks.

Here's another one: Very early in a session, I'm UTG with KK and a 40bb stack. I raise to 5bb and get 5 callers (2 of which were the blinds). Now there are 30bb in the pot and I have 35bb behind. Flop comes 899. Both blinds check. Is anything other than a 9 calling if I shove? I'm thinking if the table is so loose that 5 people will coldcall a UTG raise somebody will call with an 8, a pocket pair, JT, T7, 67 or an ace. They might even call 2 overcards (they don't know I have KK). I say shove and if someone has a 9 FML.

Thoughts?

That one is a little trickier, imo. First, if this table is this loose you may want to consider limp/jamming preflop; having someone raise, get a bunch of callers, and even just taking all the dead money uncontested preflop is huge (and if someone calls we've managed to get in stacks as a big fave). As played, with only a ~PSB left, I think we probably just have to ship it and if someone has a 9x, oh well; as stacks get deeper / we have more behind, this obviously changes.

GcluelessNLnoobG