Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-06-2013, 09:30 PM   #1
Tony777
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 59
Short Stack Live Strategy

I have been playing STT SNGs and I am now looking to build my game from the ground up in live cash games starting with a short stack strategy. The stakes are $1-$2 NL, the buy in range is $100-$300 (and can buy for 70% of the big stack). I am buying in for $100. Is there a good thread already for the short stack strategy in low stakes games? The game I play is often very loose. I'm basically planning on raising TT+, AK early, MP raising AQ 88 and 99, late raising a few more hands. I'll call from any position with 22-77 trying to flop a set (unless the game has a lot of preflop raising). I'm also playing some suited connectors, suited broadways in late position if the conditions are favorable. Suggestions on strategy/threads I could read to get going on this?

Thx,

Tony
Tony777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 09:51 PM   #2
AAismyLIFE
banned
 
AAismyLIFE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Austria
Posts: 444
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

shortstaks dont use pokerforums
AAismyLIFE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 10:57 PM   #3
Mexican_Natis
adept
 
Mexican_Natis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Grind
Posts: 987
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-russian
Mexican_Natis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2013, 11:27 PM   #4
BWillie
veteran
 
BWillie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Seaworld
Posts: 2,515
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

In live poker, short stack eat youuuuuu
BWillie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 02:44 PM   #5
Tony777
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 59
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Why did I get a link about learning Russian from Rosetta Stone? ...and I'm only doing the short stack strategy until I can learn/build my bankroll. Fortunately, even with the rake I can beat this particular game with shortstack poker (haven't tested it for sure yet, but pretty sure). Plus they have an Aces Cracked promo on Friday and Saturday which helps if you buy in short. Shortstacking is still poker, it's just simplified poker...why does everyone get so upset about it? There are games where the min buy in is higher if you want more skill attached to the game. I will ask once again if anyone has any advice for building my game from the ground up in live poker starting with a short stack strategy...

Thx,

Tony
Tony777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 03:17 PM   #6
Raidion
grinder
 
Raidion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: on the streets
Posts: 551
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Shortstacking is terrible live if you don't play to get it in preflop or HU on the flop. This is because the games are so loose. Shortstacks basically raise to get the pot HU and then shove and because the opponent doesn't usually have a hand they will fold and when they do have a hand, the shortstack's range is strong anyway and they have decent equity.

This falls apart when your raises preflop are getting 4 or 5 callers as you will just end up playing a bloated pot multiways with no room to maneuver. Not that this isn't profitable, but it just opens you up to a different kind of variance.

Example, you raise TT in epto 16 in a 1/2 game (larger than the usual opening raise). You get 2 or 3 callers. pot is 60 and you have 70 left. Flop is AJ2r. Shoving there is pure spew. However if the same hand you had JJ, wouldn't you rather have more money behind to get max value from anyone with AK/AQ, etc?

Yes you can lose bigger pots while playing a bigger stack, but you also can win bigger pots, and 1/2 NL is all about maximizing value, not trying to get people to fold or getting into flips with TT vs AQ. Buy in at least 80bbs deep so you are able to setmine and even bluff a little and you will be much more profitable.

If you don't have a bankroll to play with, you are going to have to run good anyways, so you might as well try to do it so you can win 200bb pots instead of 100bb pots. Just my thoughts.
Raidion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 03:31 PM   #7
Buster65
The Situation
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livin' on Bluff Rd.
Posts: 1,610
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Short stack play is fine, I do it all the time when in a new casino or at a table where I don't know many people.

Just a few simple rules. Don't cold call a raise, ever. Don't set mine against a raise. For bankroll building purposes, you should really get up anytime you run your buyin to 200. Raise or fold always.

It's kinda boring as far as poker is concerned.
Buster65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 04:04 PM   #8
AllJackedUp
old hand
 
AllJackedUp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Taking 1 outers like it's my job.
Posts: 1,424
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

I'm really skeptical that you can beat the rake short stacking at 1/2nl.

Most rooms will be dropping $4-5 in rake from every pot you scoop and I don't think you can overcome that (the pots you do win are going to be too small too often compared to the rake and size of the blinds).

If you can find a game that is really loose and always has the straddle on, then go for it, that's probably beatable. But, your variance will be higher and your ability to put in volume to overcome variance is decreased (because of the slow volume live and because you'll need to table hop once you win a pot).

The most common leak (by far!) among live low stakes players is that they call waaaay too often, and this leak is most costly to them after the flop. Short stacking only decreases the edge against this leak.

Buy in short until you figure out who the donators are, then top off.
AllJackedUp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 07:02 PM   #9
aznman08
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 77
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
I'm really skeptical that you can beat the rake short stacking at 1/2nl.

Most rooms will be dropping $4-5 in rake from every pot you scoop and I don't think you can overcome that (the pots you do win are going to be too small too often compared to the rake and size of the blinds).
if you're scooping pots and casinos are taking out $4-5 in rake per pot , you SHOULD be getting paid off on your hands. $1-2 NL tends to have more fish and they are more than happy to pay off your big hands.
aznman08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 07:21 PM   #10
DeepStack bMAC
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 458
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

I never liked short stacking so maybe I'm biased but my opinion would be to sit around till you have QQ+\AK, raise way above average cuz you will usually get a caller then gii otf. Variance will be higher IMO since you will be pot committed way quicker.

It's a totally different beast than short stacking stt's
DeepStack bMAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2013, 12:39 AM   #11
overun
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 551
I think OP's strategy for short stacking is pretty valid.. I normally buy-in to a 2/5 game on a short stack and just.. wait..

Lol that's right I just sit there and wait for good hands because that's all you can really do.. I think your raising ranges are fine OP although I normally play 88/99 as set mining hands or mini over pair hands if there are limpers in front of me

I will also limp behind with suited connectors or small pp or Axs if I have decent position and there are limpers in front of me.. Sometimes I open limp with these if the guys behind me are not too aggressive

Overall game plan is of course to flop top pair/over pair and then bet bet bet until you're allin.. draws with 10 or less outs I normally just call and try to hit and draws with more outs I'm inclined to raise and get it in (obviously player and situation dependent)

Overall I think short stacking is a fine strategy to play a game that you're not quite rolled for.. just make sure that you STICK TO YOUR PLAN and don't tilt off your chips from not getting hands.. oh and as someone mentioned earlier, there's a bunch of variance - so accept that and just roll with the punches

Btw it's really nice to score a 1k+ win in 2/5 when you only buy-in 300

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using 2+2 Forums
overun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2013, 01:44 AM   #12
paratrooper99
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Paratrooper1999 on Twitch
Posts: 1,353
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

I have utilized a very effective Short Stack strategy in PLO and higher stakes. I have never done so in 1/2. Im sure there is a way. The biggest problem I see with most short stacks are they cant change gears when they get deep. Unlike online, you cant always leave and go to a new table with the min. I would advise playing home games until you get a good roll for 1/2.
paratrooper99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2013, 09:45 AM   #13
overun
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 551
Yeah that's a good point I forgot to touch upon..once you double up you need to be able to play deeper stacked.. if your 100+bb game sucks, then it's probably best to leave the game once you hit that mark and find another game

Staying around with deep stacks and no idea how to utilize it will result in you losing "more" money and you'll probably feel worse afterwards than if you had only lost your initial $100 buy-in

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using 2+2 Forums
overun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2013, 02:54 PM   #14
eldiesel
Pooh-Bah
 
eldiesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,543
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony777 View Post
I'll call from any position with 22-77 trying to flop a set
You're rarely going to be getting the right odds to mine because you are only allowing yourself to win another $100 from an opponent.

One of the huge advantages I have is that when I cooler someone, I double a lot of $, when I get coolered/unlucky on an ai, I thank the guy for sitting with <$100.
eldiesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2013, 04:47 PM   #15
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 20,739
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

You'll find a lot of threads by using the search function and the words, "short" and "strategy."

LLSNL is a bad place to try a short stack strategy. The first problem you have is that you can't play a good short stack strategy when the minimum buy in is 50BB. You're really looking to buy in for no more than 30BB. The second problem is that you have little FE in LLSNL when short. The last problem is that if you win, you're no longer a short stack. You just can't rat hole most places and go to a new table immediately. You'll have to wait 30 to 60 minutes to go back in again.

In general, short stacking is a high variance game with a lower return than playing a full stack. Once you learn that the average winning hand at show down in cash games is two pair, you don't have play a short stack game any longer.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2013, 07:27 PM   #16
quesuerte
Pooh-Bah
 
quesuerte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4,335
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
You'll find a lot of threads by using the search function and the words, "short" and "strategy."

LLSNL is a bad place to try a short stack strategy. The first problem you have is that you can't play a good short stack strategy when the minimum buy in is 50BB. You're really looking to buy in for no more than 30BB. The second problem is that you have little FE in LLSNL when short. The last problem is that if you win, you're no longer a short stack. You just can't rat hole most places and go to a new table immediately. You'll have to wait 30 to 60 minutes to go back in again.

In general, short stacking is a high variance game with a lower return than playing a full stack. Once you learn that the average winning hand at show down in cash games is two pair, you don't have play a short stack game any longer.
not a problem
quesuerte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 01:09 AM   #17
masaraksh
Pooh-Bah
 
masaraksh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: beantown
Posts: 5,252
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Yeah, you should play tight and ship your stack in a lot, squeeze when lots of dead money, and forget the speculative suited connectors, they're way over-rated at 1/2 and 2/5.

All in all though, I can't think of anything more painful than short stacking live 1/2NL. I'd rather dig ditches or sort bolts for an auto shop.
masaraksh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 03:13 AM   #18
LotGrinder
Pooh-Bah
 
LotGrinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 4,216
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

I love ss threads.
LotGrinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 03:20 AM   #19
Tony777
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 59
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

All of the advice is appreciated...thx everyone. Yeah I definitely don't want to do short stacking for long, just want to learn the game better, watch the players, and build my roll before I buy in bigger. The rake is actually even more than $4-$5, it's actually $9 at a $200 pot with $2 jackpot dollars and $1-$2 tipping, meaning I'll need 53-54% equity. The game is just so loose that it's actually possible to win even in those conditions...plus there is an aces cracked promotion sometimes. I hope to buy in for at least 100bb starting in a couple of months (and buy in bigger beyond that, people have 500+bb stacks at times).

Thx,

Tony
Tony777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 03:23 AM   #20
LotGrinder
Pooh-Bah
 
LotGrinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 4,216
Tony.

Buy in short, double and then play solid abc poker/extract value/crush.

Don't buy in...double..then cash out.

gl
LotGrinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 03:35 AM   #21
DK Barrel
Concept of the Week author
 
DK Barrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: no gamble, no future
Posts: 5,225
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony777 View Post
and build my roll before I buy in bigger
Your bankroll is not a flower. It does not grow on its own.

So many people use "build my roll" to mean "have money appear in my pocket over time as I play poker". The correct term for that is "winning".

A very good 1/2 winrate is $20/hr. People who earn that much buy in for the maximum.

Because mistakes are compounded when deepstacked, and because good players profit from other players' mistakes, there is not a linear correlation between winrate and stack size. A similarly skilled 50bb player could not expect to make half as much as a 100bb player.

That ratio is skewed even further when you consider that we are talking about net winrates, not gross winrates. You might expect to pay up to $15/hr in rake, drops and tokes. So that $20/hr winner is actually a $35/hr gross winner. Someone winning half as much is really making $2/hr after the rake.

So, if you are a very good shortstacker who makes no mistakes, you are looking at a few dollars per hour (at best). Growing a bankroll might take a while.
DK Barrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 03:48 AM   #22
dunderstron!
adept
 
dunderstron!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 842
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

I like the fact that you want to learn to play live, acknowledge that you don't know the game well enough, and therefore want to short stack. In this case, you are short stacking so that you lose less while getting a feel for the game. Humility is good.

Most of the responses you are getting come from players who are winning and have good BRs, and therefore deep stack. Makes sense for them. You will hopefully get to that point as well.

Your strategy needs a few corrections. Do not play low PP and SC as a shortstack. For these hands you need good implied odds, which you don't have. You should be folding low PP in early and middle position. I'm not sure what you should do in LP; folding, limping, and raising all seem valid to me. Decide based on the players who have yet to play. Never play SC.

You will find that AK is stronger for you as a short stack. Just keep in mind, if your stack has grown, your AK strategy will have to change. (I think AK sucks when deep stacked. I kinda despise AK.)

Keep in mind that many short-stackers at 1/2NL stop-and-go alot. Players recognize this and tend to call short-stackers light, so you shouldn't bluff much. But this should be a non-issue; since you are just learning B&M you should be playing tight anyway.

With the rake this high and you not being better than your opposition (yet), expect to lose. Play tight to keep those losses to a minimum.

Cheers and GL!
dunderstron! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2013, 04:03 AM   #23
ChristopherEucken1
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 522
Re: Short Stack Live Strategy

short stacking 200nl live? srsly? i mean like srsly dude? live poker is boring enough with 100bb+, especially if you are used to play online and play a hand every other minute. but live poker without beeing able to play ppīs and scīs, thats about as entertaing as watching grass grow
ChristopherEucken1 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Đ 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online