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Old 05-27-2012, 10:56 AM   #1
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Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

UTG is a middle age super nit woman. With this sizing, her UTG opening range is exactly QQ+.

1/3NL 9 players
Villain (UTG) - $XXX
Hero (BTN) - Covers

Hero is dealt QQ
UTG raises to $20, 5 folds, Hero?

How deep must she be?
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:02 AM   #2
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

How does she play post. Will you win the pot if the flop comes down 678r? Will you win her entire stack if the flop comes Q62r?
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:11 AM   #3
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

I can't believe this is even a question.... but...

This is a really easy call. Sure she's tight but she's probably gonna play her hand essentially face up post flop. If she bets Axx or Kxx flops, its probably just safe to fold to one bet. If the flop comes low and she checks you can bet or check/back (but be pretty confident in your hand). If the flop comes low and she bets then you can call. She might bet again on the turn or even check the turn to "pot control" or whatever. Then just check/back or call again. Even with AA she will likely check the river and you can cheaply enough get to showdown.

So yeah, flat pre, flat most flops. Once you get past the flop, bad live players will play their hand completely face up on turn and river.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:14 AM   #4
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

Why would you call on a low flop when her range is QQ+ trying to either split or hit a 2 outer? I'm guessing you put either some percentage of spazz or AK in that range, but I've found tons of players to have neither here (at least any reasonable amount that we need to account for).
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:43 AM   #5
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

unless you're positive that she'll stack off AA -KK I want 10x the initial raise so in this case at least 200 behind and you cover that. If you are positive she'll stack off AA-KK then I would lower it to 9times. (This is in response to your set mining question)
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:53 AM   #6
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

I dunno... players at this level will sometimes just randomly spazz or not know what they're doing.

Like 3 years or so ago at a 1/2 game, I remember opening KK UTG, and this guy 3bet me from BB. He was playing tight/conservative and I had seen him just flat a raise with JJ the round before. So I just call. Flop came: 942r and he bet like 1.3X the pot. I tanked then folded....

He was a nice guy, and slams down TT and says "that was the BEST hand, right bud!"

Now, I wait until turn/river since those streets will essentially be the "truth serum" against live players.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:10 PM   #7
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by masaraksh View Post
I dunno... players at this level will sometimes just randomly spazz or not know what they're doing.

Like 3 years or so ago at a 1/2 game, I remember opening KK UTG, and this guy 3bet me from BB. He was playing tight/conservative and I had seen him just flat a raise with JJ the round before. So I just call. Flop came: 942r and he bet like 1.3X the pot. I tanked then folded....

He was a nice guy, and slams down TT and says "that was the BEST hand, right bud!"

Now, I wait until turn/river since those streets will essentially be the "truth serum" against live players.
Those are called one-offs. It's funny that most of these players never deviate from their standard line except few occasional one-offs, and all of sudden no one knows how to play against them.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:26 PM   #8
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

^ yeah, that was obv a spazz

I still think that giving a villain such a narrow range is incorrect. I think QQ still has some "value" here...
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:31 PM   #9
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

If said player is a regular, either run a few tests on her now, or pay attention for other HH's.

Raise her on A-high board and raise her on low board and see what she does.

Collect information and move forward from there.

If she's not a regular, I'll probably go with 10x and move on.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:37 PM   #10
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

we need to know her stack to determine her UTG raising range. I understand you're asking a question about implied odds / set mining, but we can't construct a range without stack sizes.

For instance, if she's sitting on $600, I think her UTG raising range should probably widen, and include hands like TT+, AQss+, etc.

If she's sitting on $200, her range narrows to something like JJ+ AKss+

If she has $100, are we folding?
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:39 PM   #11
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by wWizardG View Post
If she has $100, are we folding?
Yes, if we put her on QQ+. Bad odds is still bad odds even at $1, if we're playing .05/.10.

Ps. Most rec players don't adjust opening range based on stack size, so the question of her stack size might not be relevant. But yes, in extreme cases such as < 10bb, villain could be shoving with wide range.
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:09 PM   #12
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

I dunno I definitely play with some players who only raise QQ+ and they show every time everyone folds. Sure there is spazz but I would say QQ 30%, KK 30%, AA 30%, spazz/AK/JJ 10% at best for many villains.
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:19 PM   #13
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

^ we've all seen these types of players, but that sounds like an absolutely terrible game... Unless they are just like limp/calling with all their other hands...

I'd rather be water boarded than play 1/2 with a bunch of nits who are all only playing 22-AA/AK
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:49 PM   #14
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

Well maybe there is only 1 at your table; you still have to adjust to him.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:12 PM   #15
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Re: Set mining with QQ 1/3NL

150BBs deep I call with ATC here. I would also run a bluff on an Axx board, and maybe even Kxx or some super wet board like a monotone board depending on reads.
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