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Old 08-09-2012, 09:43 AM   #1
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Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

1-2 Foxwoods (Mid-Day Wednesday)

I could use some help in these situations. I get lost sometimes when a scare card comes.

Villain is in his late 20s and just sat down, been there for maybe an orbit. He bought in for the $300 (hero covers) and seemed to know what he was doing.

Hero is in his early 30s and has run well, but villain doesn't know that yet. Villain showed one of the nicer guys at the table that he bet an open-ender on the flop to take a small pot down.

Villain is in MP with about $290, hero covers.

1 limp, villain limps, another limp, hero raises to $12 with JJ (standard raise was to $8 or so at this table), everyone folds except villain.

Pot: ~$25
Flop: 235 (two spades)

Villain Checks, Hero bets $15, villain calls.

Pot: ~$55
Turn: 9x

Villain Checks, Hero bets $30, villain calls.

Pot: $115
River: J

Villain checks, Hero?
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:05 AM   #2
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

I would of bet a little more on the flop and on the turn... Maybe $17-$20 on the flop and then around 45 on the turn... As played I would continue betting, maybe around $75 hoping he is slow playing a flopped set, of he shoves then u have a tough decision where I'd probably make a crying call.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:08 AM   #3
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

I probally bet/fold $70 here.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:20 AM   #4
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

My instinct is to B/F this hand too, but I'm wondering what calls us here?

The way villain played the hand seems to indicate either medium strength like a middle pair or a pocket pair like 66-88 that is now 3rd pair to the board on this river.

You have a bit of evidence that villain can bet his draws, so there are fewer combos of draws in his range.

Given the fact, however, that villain might be relatively weak with J hitting on the river, I think this is a spot where you have to bet smaller, as low as maybe $40, which is tempting enough to get called by the weaker pairs in his range.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:26 AM   #5
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

Villain Might have had a hand like pocket 4s or 6s, or A5 suited. As played, there is no reason he would have checked the river if he hit the flush. I also don't think there is much value in betting. It is very unlikely he will call a bet on this river. If he has a low pair or a busted straight draw or top pair on the flop, he is in a bad spot with that river card. I would value bet it low, maybe $60 (double your turn bet). Im going to guess with his range here though, it will be tough to get a call. I do think you win this hand 95% of the time as played, I think it takes a real tricky player or a real rookie nothing in between to check oop on the river when hitting a flush heads up. That card reaks of action kill to the flop/turn better
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:45 AM   #6
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

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Originally Posted by fun101 View Post
I probally bet/fold $70 here.

this^, i think that's actually a perfect card for you to bomb/fold, hes either calling you down with some med strength showdownish hand or a flush draw, you can bet that card hard because it looks bluffy when the heart comes and you still bomb it, he can easily level himself into calling $70+ with some showdown bearing hand, the cool part about bombing it is that if he does come out and raise you, your decision is sooooooo easy, i mean you will lose more $ the small amount he has a flush, but will own him all the times he thinks he has show down value(which on that board id say is alot), I don't think this line would be possible if river wasn't the J of hearts

op you say these spots weird you out a bit, you should do some research on the bet/fold line learn when where and why
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:47 AM   #7
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

I would bet-fold against unknown. Tough for him to c-raise without a flush, especially because you are also unknown to him. And you will get called by worse sometimes, especially by smaller sets which are well in his limp-call range. You'll get a majority of folds obviously, but a few spite/curiosity calls as well with weak hands.

+1 to bet a bit more on flop & turn
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:52 AM   #8
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

First, you need to bet bigger, especially on the turn. If villian has a hand like A9 he could have up to 16 outs; only betting half-pot is giving him excellent pod odds to continue. I'd bet $45-50 on the turn.

As played - probably a bet/fold. I can't imagine villain could be on a flush draw if he checks when the flush comes on. But what hand could villain have that he just check/calls the whole way? Pocket 10s? 45s that was open-ended? Really a weird hand.

Either way - I'd go ahead and bet $50 or so, try to get looked up by a pocket pair or some weird two-pair hand. If villain ships it should be a fold in a vacuum...but I'd be very tempted to call, to be honest; I'd expect competent villains to a) bet their draws and b) not check the river when the draw comes in.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:55 AM   #9
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

Hands like this just go to show how important it is to know your opponent, know what he is capable of, know his tendencies and frequencies as those will be the factors that will be the base of your decision making process, obv there are other factors that go into a decision making process through a hand but most of those factors will come from those 3 things and that should be how you know how to navigate through these situations in the future. anyone care to add anything?
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:21 AM   #10
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

Bet more on the flop....he has a ton of hands that call $20,
continue with larger on the turn...
on the river bet small....he has almost no hands that call $70 here that don't beat, I doubt he has any hands that might call a 1/2 pot bet...showed action before this....

It becomes a question of math....what hands call 10, what hands call 35....what hands call 50 what hands call 70....

77, or A5 might call 35 nothing higher....and what else can he have that you beat that calls more, I can't invent a hand...
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #11
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Re: Rivered Set, Flush Draw Hit, Bet or Check Behind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLpoker331 View Post
Hands like this just go to show how important it is to know your opponent, know what he is capable of, know his tendencies and frequencies as those will be the factors that will be the base of your decision making process, obv there are other factors that go into a decision making process through a hand but most of those factors will come from those 3 things and that should be how you know how to navigate through these situations in the future. anyone care to add anything?

After he checked, I thought for about 10 seconds on what hands would call. I thought he might have slowplayed a set, which would have been nice. I bet $55 on the river and he folded. After he folded, I was very confused with what he had.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:42 AM   #12
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Bet more on flop and turn, and as pointed out, b/f river (there are enough showdown hands in villains range to make betting profitable here to get value from a call in contrast to being x/r'd by villain with made flushes).
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLpoker331 View Post
Hands like this just go to show how important it is to know your opponent, know what he is capable of, know his tendencies and frequencies as those will be the factors that will be the base of your decision making process, obv there are other factors that go into a decision making process through a hand but most of those factors will come from those 3 things and that should be how you know how to navigate through these situations in the future. anyone care to add anything?
How he postures, talks, dresses and whether or not he loves to get on the slosh
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