The trap of 2+2 is that our posts are usually those rare, difficult, and atypical situations that comprise less than 4% of our encounters.

But what about the other 96% of encounters? What I would like is for this thread to become a containment thread comprised of hands and situations that are representative of the TYPICAL AND MAJORITY situations we will and should encounter.

Please follow the same posting format to include villain descriptions, table dynamics, and you should also include your analysis of the hand and give your comments on how/why this represents the typical LLSNL hand.

PUT A TITLE ON YOUR REPLY so that it will be easy to distinguish the various hands that comprise this thread.

So this will serve as both an example thread and a teaching thread.

And for the purposes of this thread, you can include hands you were not a part of but just witnessed.

Ok I like this idea. I know I only post the hands that were diffucult and out of about 25 hours of play there may only be 2 hands like that.

I will give a typical situation that happens all the time.

1-2 NL Hero is on button or cutoff (in position) with xx

A few fish limp and a TAG with headphones raises to $12

Hero calls and one passive fish calls.

Flop $40ish comes K 8 3

Fish checks, TAG bets $15 lol hero calls, fish folds.

Turn $70ish Tag checks hero bets $60 tag folds.

This happens all the time and it is how I make almost all my money.

Same type of hand say Tag bets $20 on turn (another very weak bet they have no clue about bet sizing) hero raises to $90, tag folds.

Yes you need to watch for board texture and you need to pay attention to what hands they are showing down, but really it is this easy.

Now I will post an actual hand that happened to me on Saturday night at Foxwoods.

Villan is a guy in his early 30's with a bunch of tatoos and a green mohawk. He actually is very personable and good natured, not a total fish but seems to just be playing for fun. After he won a pot that was like $220ish he tipped the dealer $50. He is at the casino just for some fun on a saturday night.

Hero has been raising limpers in position to $15 every time. Taking dwon safe flops with c bets and people are starting to whine about all the $15 raises pre. I kind of got a little run of decent cards and situations and have made it $15 to go like 6 times in a row at this point.

Here is the hand.

Hero is CO ($320) with AQ

Villan is MP ($400ish)

A few limps, villan limps, hero raises to $15 Everyone calls lol including villan who says I am sick of all this $15 in a kidding manner.

Pot is $60-$75 dont remember how many callers either 4 or 5

Flop comes 38T

Limpers check to villan who shoves for $380ish

Hero calls everyoe else folds.

Villan shows 83 for 2 pair and loses.

These are some typical things that will happen if you play well, pay attention, and stay aggressive against these passive limpers. You will get action and you will pick up a lot of pots as well.

Hand 2 isn't a typical hand unless you play in an insane room.

Hand 1 is a recipe to light money on fire unless it is targeted to specific villains.

Did i not say "Yes you need to watch for board texture and you need to pay attention to what hands they are showing down, but really it is this easy."????????????

This hand highlights a host of villain mistakes.

Game: 2/5nl effective stacks $800

V1 ($800) in big blind, he is a very typical know-it-all ABC player who has been playing for years and thinks he has the game completely figured out. He raises in LP with KQ, AT-AK, 88+ and has no qualms calling pot sized bets with TPGK. Overvalues hands when there is a draw on the board. Complains whenever he gets "sucked out on" while being completely oblivious to how/why his opponents would have great odds for drawing. Also completely oblivious to his own mistakes which are many.

V2 ($1200) in CO, he is an aggro spewtard ABC player who has been playing for years. He raised pf $25 in the LP, I was in the SB and 3-bet him to $75 (I had AK), he called me and stacked off for $800 w AJs on a A 2 A 8 9 board. On to the hand.


UTG limps, MP calls, LP raises to $15, CO calls, BTN calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls. 7-way action

flop($105) A 5 T
SB checks, BB bets $100, folds around to CO who calls, BTN & SB folds, heads up.

Turn($305) 9
BB bets $250, CO raises to $670 ish which puts BB all-in, BB tanks then calls.

River($1700ish) 2
BB -- T5
CO -- A T

BB stated adamantly, "Well I had to call. I had two pair. I had no choice." BB also stated, "I put him on AJ or thought he was on the flush draw"

Analysis.
BB's first mistake was one many LLSNL players make, he called the preflop raise from the BB because he was getting a "discount". LLSNL players love to view the SB and BB calls as being "priced in". The fact that being out of position in a bloated pot with a marginal hand doesn't even cross their donkey little minds as being -EV.

BB's 2nd mistake was ranging his villain for exactly one hand-- AJ. Never mind that AT and AJ are more or less the same hand preflop in this situation. V could also have Axs or Ax which would put AT, A5, and A9 in his range. And why would villain shove all-in on the turn with a flush draw and not the flop? And don't forget 55/TT for flopped sets...

If CO had AQ or AK he would have 3bet pre and he is never stacking off on turn with A2-A4, A6 -A8 or a FD. So, most likely hand is CO has aces up.

BB's final mistake was to not account for the fact that the hand started out SEVEN HANDED. Whenever that many hand combos see the flop, hand strength will converge to the top part of potential ranges.

Lastly, when we have bottom two pair on an Ace high board we should never be itching to stack off for 160bb, especially in a hand that started out 7-way.

I see people overplay bottom 2 all the time.

Very good post.

Most of the games I play in Los Angeles casinos are capped at 40-60 bb at the 3/5 level. I believe this makes the games looser than uncapped games. We also have a large population of Asians, whose racial sterotype is gambly for good reason. This also adds to the looseness of the games.

This is an example from today illustrating how PF limping ranges vary little from PF limp/calling ranges.

Typical number of limpers averages about 4-6. Typical limping range is: 22-TT, any broadway, any suited connector, any one gap suited connector, any connector, any one gap connector, any two suited.

3/5 $200 capped game at Commerce, 9 handed. I'm not in hand, just observing.

UTG ($180) open limps. 40ish Asian male. trys to make hands, then bet them. doesn't bluff. will call with his draws regardless of odds. overvalues top pair

UTG1 ($190) calls. 60ish Asian male. loves to gamble. raises PF blind from time to time. doesn't bluff much, likes to make his odd two pair on 94o etc and bet them. will call with his draws regardless of odds. will fold top pair.

MP ($1150) calls. 25ish Asain male. bets his draws for two streets. does not shoot the third bullet if he misses. likes to make hands and bet them. overvalues top pair.

MP1 ($230) calls. 50ish white male with cowboy hat and beard. has tabled one hand where he limped PF and check called two bullets with A2o, having no pair or draw on the turn. Rivered an A and bet out to lose to two pair. I don't know anything else about him.

Folds to CO.

CO ($320) raises to $25 (typical bet sizing) 40ish Middle Eastern male. He is LAG. Has built a big stack 2 or 3 times and lost it each time and had to re-buy. Over plays top pair. Will bluff river occassionally with his missed draws. Cbets a high percentage. Usually has a piece or draw if he fires a second bullet.

Folds to BB.

BB ($90) calls. 30ish Asian male. TAG, but will call PF if he thinks it's going to be a big pot. Will play post flop ABC, nothing crazy.

UTG calls
UTG1 calls
MP calls
MP1 calls

Pot $150

Flop K96

Checks around to CO

CO bets $60
BB folds
UTG folds
UTG1 calls
MP folds
MP1 calls

Pot $330

Turn 2

CO bets $100
UTG1 shoves $105
MP1 shoves $145
CO calls

River: J

CO shows KT
UTG1 shows J 3
MP1 shows 87

CO says "nice catch on the turn"
MP1 says "I had to push, open ended" MP replies "Of course"

In these games at least 90% of the player pool will play draw type hands PF when they do not come close to having proper odds. I have played hundreds of hours in the capped games and I have never heard even one comment about PF selection in relation to implied odds.

They do not adjust their limping range vs. their limp/calling range. I think they just see it as a bigger pot, so they want to play it. They will begin to fold at about 10x PF raise, because that is the standard bet size for JJ-AA, although many times you will get one caller who is playing a small to med sc because he knows you have "big cards". When PF raise gets to 20x over a few limpers, it usually indicates a weaker squeeze type play from AJ-AK, 99-JJ.

Their tendency to play their weak holdings can be exploited when in late position by using a 10-12x raise over one or more limpers to iso one limper. I usually pick a hand that can flop some equity like med-large sc, AXs or KXs and KK-AA. Cbet all good boards, 2nd barrell most boards, and hope they don't river their draw. It works most of the time, but when it doesn't, you're out of chips and have to rebuy.

Great thread idea.

The Two Pair drawer

Female Retiree (we'll call her Sue) moves to your $1-$2 table, announces to the dealer "I hope this table likes to see a few flops". She has about $100.

You witness her limp, then fold to a raise behind her.
Later, you witness Sue limp again. Someone raises to $13 behind her, but there are 2 callers before her so she calls also.

Pot is 52-ish. Flop comes J72. Everyone checks to original raiser, who bets $25. Sue calls, everyone else folds.

Pot 102-ish. Turn is the K. Now Sue comes out and bets $40. Original Raiser looks over at her stack, sees she has $22 left, and puts her all in. Sue calls.

River is 9. Sue shows K 2 for two pair. Original raiser mucks.

Sue says "I was sure glad to see that king on the turn" as she drags the pot.

I call these players "two pair drawers" because they will float the flop with any pair looking for 2pair (or trips). The same players will often call a flop bet with an underpair like 44 looking to hit a set. Some of these players will call a turn bet for the same reasons, others will fold to a bigger turn bet.

Once I identify a two pair drawer, I my plan is to bomb the flop with top pair/overpair, sometimes worse of course (99 on a J83). It's also obvious these players like flushes - their "big little" cards are usually suited, and they may even say "I only called the raise because they were suited" (implying that they would limp in with K2o).

If you miss the flop and turn, you have to figure out whether the two pair drawer is the type who will fold to a second barrel before trying it. If I don't know, I will often check behind and take my (hopefully) 6 outs of equity. (Sometimes, if they're chasing the flush draw with K2, I may have the best hand with ace-high, so checking for showdown value works well also).

great thread idea!

"I know I'm no good but I just want to see your hand"

played a 50/100 thai bhat (so 1/3 USD) hand recently. stacks in hand are ~12k (120bb) effective. villain cover me. a very bad player limps from EP, another player limps behind. i raise to 600 with 86ss in MP hoping to isolate the really bad player. he is a typical loose-passive live donk. he always puts people on very nutted ranges, has called me a nit repeatedly, but always seems to pay me off for whatever reason. well, he pays everyone off.

blinds call, villain calls, one fold. flop A75r. i cbet 1200. SB calls, villain thinks for a moment and calls. turn is Js which gives me a flushdraw....both guys check i think this is a pretty great spot to barrel as i don't see either guy continuing without a big ace/2pr+/a monster draw. the first two are kinda unlikely, a big ace might fold, and a draw will fold to a river brick. plus i have zero SD value. i bet 3k so i can shove the river depending on what hits expecting this bet to get me HU on river and i have the implied odds off stacking someone if i do hit and they're strong.

river is 4 giving me the nuts which is nice, the SB leads for 2k, villain calls, i obviously shove. SB sighs and throws his last chips in, villain starts muttering "HOW DO PEOPLE ALWAYS GET THEIR ON THE RIVER???? i know i can't be good. this sucks fine i call" and tables his AQ, which loses the small side pot to SB's A5. he then goes off a bit to the dealer about giving him a "dirty, sickest card in the deck" on river.

he then went on tilt and spewed off 3 buyins. which is another thing...plenty of decent poker players can blow off a month's worth of progress in a single bad session. so uh, set a stoploss or something.

villain doesn't understand the relative strength of his hand, that he is always beat in at least one if not two spots here, and that calling off on the river after the SB reships even though it's not much more relative to size of pot is still a 25bb mistake. good players make 10bb/hr so calling off when you know you're no good just kills your winrate.

SB also ****ed up by not c-raising any street. of course i would've mucked AK had i gotten raised on flop but AQ guy would've always gone broke there.

I Put You On AK

2/5nl, Effective stacks $300

Villain ($300) is a terribad typical rec fish, will limp with a wide range and call a raise with 100% of his limping range. He will stack off with TPGK and if any weakness is shown, he will then stack off with mid pair.

Hero is in BB with KK and covers villain.

UTG limps, Villain is UTG+1 and limps as does everyone else, actoin gets to hero, Hero raises $45, villain calls, everyone folds.

Flop(135) 8 3 4
Hero checks, villain checks

Turn(135) J
Hero goes all-in, villain says, "I put you on AK" and then he calls

River(655ish) A

Hero shows KK, villain shows JT

Analysis

I knew the flop likely missed V's range and so I checked hoping V would catch up with either a draw or a pair. When the turn hit, I was pretty confident that the jack either hit Villain or gave him a draw and he was the type of player that simply couldn't fold either, so I shoved.

Villains at the 1/2nl and 2/5nl level love to put the preflop raiser on AK or read you for EXACTLY two cards. So it didn't surprise me when he snap calls me. Which is of course why I shoved instead of going for a valuebet. This is an area where I think many 2+2ers make mistakes. When we are in a situation in which we know our villains will call a shove then we need to shove. We have to remember that most rec fish don't think like 2+2ers and aren't thinking about SPR but rather in terms of winning and losing. In this case, villain is never folding a made hand to me here because he has a soul read on me for having AK and so his pair is good in his mind.

Never mind that i've never bluffed or have show nothing but big hands. V still puts me on AK...

Uh, it looks like you were never going to win this pot unless you hit. I might reconsider your plan to bluff shove the river if called OTT, probably even consider checking back the turn.

Villain (300$) opens to 10 UTG
Hero (250$) calls in MP with 33
All folds
Flop (20$) 945
Villain cbets 15$...hero refuses to fold because I have position and I can make a move on almost all turns, so I float
Turn (50$) T
Villain checks obv...hero thinks this is not the greatest card to pull that move but his range is so capped I have to bet this
Hero bets 38$....
How bad is this?

I like this

Depends on your Villain. If he is the type to cbet then shut down when he whiffs (like most LLSNL players) then this is a great line. If he is the type to get tricky and make aggro c/r moves w a super wide range then this is not a great line.

In general, especially since we are taking about "normal" hands, this line is fine.

meh he called me with 66...I gave up otr and he won

The question you needed to ask yourself was...
#1) Once he called your turn bet, what range did you put him on?
#2) How does this villain see you? Does he respect your raises?
#3) How will board texture impact your line? For example, if there is a FD villains are likely to call you down light.
#4). What is your plan if called, do you plan to double barrel?
#5). Given all of the above, is it profitable floating/bluff catching this villain?.


There are some villains whom I just fold pre in this spot because they are too tricky/sticky post flop. Then there are some villains whom I call pre in this spot w ATC because their post flop play is transparent and they are MUBsy/weaktight and will fold 90% of the time to aggression.

In this case, once he calls the turn bet, I'd probably range him for a overs + FD (mostly) or baby pair (less so) since most villains don't raise UTG with baby pairs.

Overall, your line is fine, in this spot majority of his range should be AJs-AKs, KJs/KQs that whiffed.

1) Any pair, AJ+, all SDs - his range is wide pre, like 45s+
2) He sees me as a tight player but he knows I post here, he actually reads my posts in here...he knows I tend to get creative and can thin v-bet
3) Great question...dunno how to answer that
4) I really thought his range was so capped once he checked the turn to mid pairs or weak TPs (98,97)
5) The river was A, didn't know if this was a good/bad card for me...he knows I am not calling pre with A8 kinda hands, and he knows I am not really floating flop barreling turn with A high...Although I should occasionally...

Basically, seems like you put the majority of his range at fledgling pairs, unfortunately fledgling pairs beat our hand. So we go back to #2 and #4

The A on river is a great bluff card for us. Given that we read V for fledgling pairs (ie that is your read) then we definitely should be bluffing this river.

Lastly, you said V knows you, and knows you can be tricky... If that is the case, you need to take more straight forward lines vs this V.


As played, bet 2/3 pot on river to fold V's hand. We could have been chasing an Ace high flush or even hit 2p, in any event, we bet turn, following that up w a river bet when an A hits will be extremely tough for V to call. Or put another way, if V is good enough to call our double barrel on this river, then we should not be trying to "outplay" him post flop.

Does the tendency of players to "Put you on AK" (and therefore get sticky with any pair) discourage you from c-betting when you actually DO whiff a flop with a big ace type hand?

Absolutely for me. It all depends on flop texture, but more often than not if I'm OOP with AK and miss the flop vs. 2 or more people i'm checking. Sprinkling in a float and a check-raise on the turn maybe 5-10% of the time.

Heads up it depends on the opponent. Typical drooler that will only call if they have a pair, cbet 100%. Thinking player.... closer to 50-60%.

Even though our villains will put us on AK, they still aren't likely to continue with the hand UNLESS they hit. So we can still cbet boards that likely missed their range which is going to be 2/3rds of the time.

Against 1 villain i'm cbetting 100% of the time regardless of board texture. Against 2 villains i'm cbetting probably 80% of the time when I'm in position targeting flops that likely missed their range.
Against 3 villains I'm cbetting probably 30% of the time specifically targeting flops that missed their range (i.e. 8 3 2 r)

However, the best defense against the "I put you on AK" villains is not just targeting dry flops, but WIDENING YOUR RAISING RANGE!!!!

I will raise in position as wide as 87s+, 97s+, AT+, 88+

So when the flop hits T 3 7 and I raised with ATo and V calls my cbet I own his JT ass...

The other benefit of widening our range is we can raise with J9s and then when the flop hits A 6 8 we can still rep the Ace and take down a significant amount of pots... So in effect, its like we are playing with 4 cards when we widen our range to raise with non AK holdings.

However, if we take these lines vs the "I put you on AK" villain these villains have to be capable of folding when the A or K hits. Sometimes the "I put you on AK" villains are also calling stations that still don't fold when the A or K hits...

this is exactly why calling the flop is spew

THE SLOWPLAYING TRIPS VILLIAN

1/2 deep stacked

V1 utg loves to raise with ATC suited cards and make either over/under cbets 100 percent of the time

V2 cutoff likes to SLOWPLAY everything

Hero BB had been card dead but had just doubled up with AA vs JJ


Utg(1150)makes it 20 folds to CO(920)calls folds to hero(1250)with 55 calls. Flop 433 R hero checks utg bets 15 CO smiles then flats hero flats('thinking CO has 3 and hoping for 5)

Turn 5 hero checks UTG bets 35 CO min raises....hero makes it 470(did this because I was 100 percent certain C/O had a 3 and would stack off with it) thoughts???

i wasn't planning on bluff-shoving the river...maybe if just one of them called me i would barrell off but i would usually check back and muck.

you are giving this hand way too much credit. it's not marginal. it's horrific. this is a fold from the small blind to save $1 in a $1/$2 game. hell, i'd fold for .25 if the blinds were $1.75/$2.