Questioning Conventional Wisdom - Page 3 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum - Live Poker Low-stakes NL

AmazonPrime · 07-21-2012, 04:00 AM

Can we be more realistic and have some real-life comparisons as oppose to comparing AA HU/3-handed to 8 or 9-handed.

Czech Rays · 07-21-2012, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmazonPrime

Can we be more realistic and have some real-life comparisons as oppose to comparing AA HU/3-handed to 8 or 9-handed.

Good point.

In "real world" situations, I think the number one huge reason to thin the field (with any hand, forget LLSNL) is to magnify villains´errors.

In a multiway pot, poker turns into a Solomon Asch experiment. One limp, we all limp. Post flop - one fold, we all fold. Mostly, to a bet on the flop, it means players end up playing reasonably fit or fold - which isn´t how we make money when there are so many in a pot, that someone will "fit".

When we are heads up, villains feel more indignant about folding, irrationally feel as if they´re being singled out to be outplayed (I know, I´m a villain

). When a villain feels this they are muh more likely to spazz (**** it, I have a gutshot, I´m gonna show him) and put lots of money in with terrible hands.

sbarnhouse · 07-21-2012, 06:09 AM

I haven't gotten very far into this thread yet but wanted to give my 2 cents before I lose it... I think there are very strong arguments for limiting the field in NL. First of all, it's no limit. It's a dangerous game, period. In order to maximize profit long term, we need to make our decisions a little easier. Tell me it's not much easier to play a 2/3/4 way pot then it is to play one 6+ deep. Even having the BTN in a 6 way pot sucks, unless you flop near the nuts or are playing with people who play their cards face up, and even then we're not maximizing. We are raising pre to build a pot with a hand that has equity (or bc we have position/reads are good, etc), and thus players fold. It's pretty crazy to even question this thinking IMO. It just makes sense in every way you can think about it. More players = less equity for us = less money for us. We want money, no?

Rusty Bumwaters · 07-21-2012, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Rays

Good point.
In a multiway pot, poker turns into a Solomon Asch experiment. One limp, we all limp. Post flop - one fold, we all fold. Mostly, to a bet on the flop, it means players end up playing reasonably fit or fold - which isn´t how we make money when there are so many in a pot, that someone will "fit".

When we are heads up, villains feel more indignant about folding, irrationally feel as if they´re being singled out to be outplayed (I know, I´m a villain

). When a villain feels this they are muh more likely to spazz (**** it, I have a gutshot, I´m gonna show him) and put lots of money in with terrible hands.

I agree with people feeling pressure to conform to how others are playing preflop when it comes to limping along, but I disagree with people folding postflop b/c others folded. Postflop I think there is pressure to bet in a way that represents what you have, as though the best hand is entitled to win and bluffing is stealing

sbarnhouse · 07-21-2012, 06:29 AM

FWIW, this arguement whether we want 7/8 callers with AA vs only having 1/2 is ridiculous. Come on guys (who are advocating 7/8 callers)... really? We have ~32% equity, but how many times are you REALLY going to win these pots with that many people seeing the flop/flopping draws/top pairs/hands that beat us? Are your reading skills THAT good? I say no way. No matter who you are you don't want to be playing AA even 4 or 5 handed to the flop... If we for whatever reason get all the money in pre, then I suppose you can advocate wanting tons of callers, but being >25bb deep, theres absolutely no way anyone can argue for more than 2 callers to the flop. No way. We all know once we realize 3+ callers are coming, we shut down inside, usually deciding to play very cautiously, and rightfully so. It's super dangerous.

**venice10** · 07-21-2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpethybridge

No it's not.

Assuming 100BB, in the 8 handed version you have 32% equity in a 900BB pot, or 288BB. In 3 handed, you have 70% equity in a 300BB pot or 210BB.

You're losing value.

Another way to look at it is that when you call with a draw, you're going to lose more times than you win (you're 2:1 seeing two cards against hitting). But you'll overall win more money than you lose.

iLikeCaliDonks · 07-21-2012, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

Assuming 100BB, in the 8 handed version you have 32% equity in a 900BB pot, or 288BB. In 3 handed, you have 70% equity in a 300BB pot or 210BB.

You're losing value.

Another way to look at it is that when you call with a draw, you're going to lose more times than you win (you're 2:1 seeing two cards against hitting). But you'll overall win more money than you lose.

Venice I thought you was just an educated poker player, I know now you are actually a great poker player. Hope one day you run hot and don't have to work anymore.

Gl you have a great poker mind.

Everyone reread venice's post in this thread. He is teaching you guys something and its going over your heads.

endodocdc · 07-21-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks

Venice I thought you was just an educated poker player, I know now you are actually a great poker player. Hope one day you run hot and don't have to work anymore.

Gl you have a great poker mind.

Everyone reread venice's post in this thread. He is teaching you guys something and its going over your heads.

It really isn't because no one is discussing the all in equity of AA against 8 players preflop
As Amazonprime pointed out, let's discuss a more realistic scenario

You raise AA and 8 people call...I'm almost certain ( don't have the math to back it up ATM ) that this scenario is not going to net you more +EV than if you raised and one two or three people call to see a flop

Pay4Myschool · 07-21-2012, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks

Seems like this thread is towards my repeated comments. I had a friend who got me into holdem. He played an aggressive big bet style 5/10NL in LA, no limping, no drawing and only set mining in position. I used to always watch him play. But I didn't like his style. He is one of those LA poker players who has been playing cards since he was a kid. So I started to learn the game watching other players and him. Reading books, visiting forums. I finally had a grasp on the game. Started trying to give him tips. But of course he wouldn't listen. Midstakes player>llsnl player

He told me books make your game worse and half the people on those forums don't play midstakes. So we always got in arguments. So I stop trying to give him tips and used my time wisely by watching the big game.

One day I asked him "why do you raise so big with AA?($75), I think its the wrong strategy?". He says "people who raise AA small are greedy, I don't want the whole table to call". At that moment I said I don't want to play nothing like him. He was a nut peddler who repeatedly took beats because his opponents knew he had the nuts. Yeah he won a lot. But at 5/10 in LA you will play rich people who have tons of money. He eventually went broke after smacking the variance train 2 years into his career. Those savvy asians who will float flop turn a open ender and shove 2k in the middle or chase draws all the way to the river. Or the NBA players who play and always call flop with bottom pair for any amount of money and turn 2 pair or hit 2pair otr, by that time the pot is to big to fold. My last example, players always call him down with monsters at 5/10. Like flopping a set and let him bet until the river. Where they will lead big/reraise him depending on position When you are pounding huge bets pre/otf your hand becomes face up. Or the hand is harder to get away from because you have invested so much preflop. You get the attitude like phil hellmuth. "How can you call me pre" or "I could never put you on that hand"

My point is you want to keep pots manageable. Aggressive but not shoveling chips in the middle. Until ranges are defined. Once players know that you don't bet reckless. They will let you know they have a hand on earlier streets and preflop.

Most of you will be like well that's 5/10 this is low stakes I won't get exploited. Well a lot of you have the same problem at llsnl. You are getting exploited by accident. Yeah I said it, they accidentally adjust to you. Why you may ask? They have mubs but still won't fold but won't raise you. How many times have you bet into a fishy player about half his stack he is moaning and groaning like he is going to fold? Plenty I bet, the fish didn't know he was pot committed. Its called accidental adjustments. Plenty of them, it all comes down to those huge raises.

Get used to playing multiway. IMO raising huge with big hands is so 2007. If you get AA and get 5-6 callers that's great TBH.

+ this is the best post you have ever made in these forums, I agree 100%

iLikeCaliDonks · 07-21-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool

+ this is the best post you have ever made in these forums, I agree 100%

Ty Pay4MySchool I appreciate it, I also think its my best post in these forums. My longest post as well.

Pay4Myschool · 07-21-2012, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks

Ty Pay4MySchool I appreciate it, I also think its my best post in these forums. My longest post as well.

If you continued to be more detailed with your posts and thinking about conceptualizing and describing what your saying a little better, you would really help a lot of people in the forums... Sometimes you write so a large QUANITY of posts and your quality drops. Just a thought

Bigoldnit · 07-21-2012, 02:49 PM

Man, I wish I found playing AA OOP against 5 or 6 villains all with 100 bb+ stacks as easy as iLikeCaliDonks makes it sound like it is... I guess I'm just not very good at the pokers...

2 quick hands for Cali (and the other folks who think playing multiway pots with big pairs is easy and profitable) to weigh in on.

1) Two black kings utg. Raise 5x, get 6 callers, including both blinds. Flop is 678 with two spades. SB checks, BB ships for 75 big blinds. Effective stacks of all the players behind you are at least 100bbs. What's your play?

2) UTG+1 with AA. UTG limps, you raise to 6x. CO and BTN call, BB calls, and UTG calls. Flop is 822. BB donks for 3/4 pot, UTG min raises that donk bet, and you?

iLikeCaliDonks · 07-21-2012, 02:53 PM

Easy folds, I'm never married emotionally to my big pairs.

Rusty Bumwaters · 07-21-2012, 02:56 PM

Those trying to justify which outcome is better using math need to read this:

Barry Greenstein on preflop odds, equity, and reverse implied odds

BigSkip · 07-21-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool

+ this is the best post you have ever made in these forums, I agree 100%

All kidding aside, I didn't see anything that useful in it. The example of the 5/10 player over raising first in is not what I saw being discussed here.