Hey everyone. Long time reader, first time poster. My brief background: I'm a reg in my local casino 1/3NL, winning ~10BB/hr over a medium-large, multiple year sample size. When on the road or in Vegas, my game of choice is 1/2/5 PLO, but doesn't get spread where I'm stuck playing. Always looking to improve both my NL and PLO games, so hopefully this first post turns into more.


OTTH:

Late night 1/3NL at local casino. Two tables have just combined to one 10 handed.

Villain 1 ($300): Mid 20s black guy reg. On the nitty side of TAG. Doesn't make many plays without nuttish hands or big draws.

Villain 2: MAWG ($350). Seems like a passive calling station, but not a lot of history with him.

Villain 3: MAWG reg ($650). LAG and well past the point of good LAG into gambly spew territory. Preflop tends to call wide and see lots of flops, postflop often bets and raises to put people to the test. Does it with air, draws, and made hands. Air makes up a large % of his range in those spots though, from my experience with him.

Hero ($600): Late 20s white guy reg. TAG, but unlikely anyone but Villain 1 pays much attention.


Hero raises to $15 UTG with QhQs.
Villain 1 calls in HJ, Villain 2 calls in SB, Villain 3 calls in BB

($60) Flop:
5c6d7c
Villains 2 and 3 check. I check (for pot control + this flop hits our villains' ranges much better than our UTG open range + I'm not scared of the nit in the HJ making a play at the pot without a monster + a check-raise both for value and as a bluff are within Villain 3's abilities). Villain 1 checks.

($60) Turn:
Qd
Villain 2 checks. Villain 3 bets $45. I call (think this was a mistake in hindsight. original thought was that I wanted to keep his air bluffs in his range since I was in position while keeping from stacking off if he flopped a straight. but he's got plenty of draws and made hands in his range that I'm ahead of that he's stacking off with here + I'm giving attractive price to two other players on a draw heavy board. should've raised). Villain 1 folds. Villain 2 calls.

($195) River:
2c
Villain 2 checks. Villain 3 bets $55. (it was such a small bet size compared to his normal play that it confused me here. typically I'm expecting him to bet ~3/4 to full pot with clubs or any air/missed draw here. don't want to get too deep into physical tells, but I definitely perceive that he likes his hand. villain 2 looks ready to muck, so not worried about him showing up with clubs here.)


Would appreciate anyone's thoughts on any part of this hand before I post my river decision/results. Particularly looking for input on the turn and river.

Sorry for the wordy post. Tried to be as succinct as I could.

Definitely raise turn it sucks when you have to take face up lines but it's a double flush draw 3 liner board there's no point in "keeping his bluffs" in because every river sucks.

As played I mean it's an easy call and a slightly thin $180/fold. I'd probably $180/fold.

I too would have raised the turn. The board is too scary. I am perfectly happy to take it down right here and if he calls to hit flush or straight, I want him to pay for the river card.

As played, I would make the call on the river. He is offering 4.5 to 1, and probably has it, but for that amount, I would make the crying call.

I'm not in love with going multiway for just << 5% of stacks preflop where we'll be OOP (although sounds like we'll be in position against the one difficult player at the table). I'd probably lean towards raising more (to setup a more comfortable stack off situation if HU) or limp/reraise. But if you're fine in the resulting postflop spot (which you might be given your very impressive results), then it's probably fine for you.

I'd probably lean towards a bet on the flop. At the very least hopefully this gets rid of the guy behind us and we'll have pot control options / get to showdown options in position on the turn if we want. SPR is a very awkward 5.5 against the smaller stacks, but I think they'll typically play it fairly honestly this multiway, so I'll bail if someone shows aggression.

Can't stand the turn call. A zillion scare cards to come, we give okish odds to anyone else to draw, plus this better can easily call a bet as he's loose / gambooley / spewy (both with draws and with very good but second best hands). I like giving poor 2:1 odds in this case, so I'm raising to $240.

With these big stacks behind against a guy who could pull something insane on us (where we'd be very uncomfortable calling a reraise), I think I just passively call the lol blocking bet on the river. It's possible I might be missing value here, but lately I'm all about being a showdown monkey against aggro opponents and laying my claim to decent sized pots, and this is one of them. Against more ABC guys we could get away with a raise/fold.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Raise turn.

Call river.

4-way, I like a bet on the flop. $30 should do it. Too many turn cards just make your life miserable.

Thanks for the input everyone.

I too want to puke about my turn play now. It's a clear raise/gii against this particular villain in this turn spot. I think he's shipping over my raise with any set, 2 pair, flush draw, or flopped straight; and folding his air. I'm way ahead of all but the straight and have outs if he shows up with it here. I got too concerned with keeping the air in his range while in the moment, instead of getting max value against the above range and protecting against draws in a 4 way pot.

My thoughts on river are same as gobbledygeek. This villain could pull something crazy (even ship it with a missed diamond draw or turn 2 pair into a bluff) if we raise for thin value here and put us to the test. Against an ABC, I like a raise/fold.

Results: I called the river and he showed 77 for flopped set. Missed opportunity, but hopefully more are on the way.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking lag players are suicidal players. It would take someone really special to 3bet/ship bluff for what is going to be like another $300 bucks or whatever after you just put $180 in. You can also size up a bit to sort of block this from happening (so $200/fold)

Lag players do all sorts of silly things but it takes an ultra tilting whale to bluff 3b a river imo. And in that case we $180/call. Lol

Ava, do we get paid off enough on this board, with our image, against enough of his range, to make the river raise/fold worth the risk? Heck, here he has the nut worse hand in his range that can call, and I'm not even convinced he does all that often (although admittedly he is described as spewy and obviously it's hard for guys like this to fold a set).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I've bluff shipped these rivers enough to know that we can get called by way way worse lol. A value raise here is a smidge thin but these are spots where you can really add to your wr...or at least look cool...and looking cool is what it's all about

Glol,awesomeG

lol yeah ive learned the hard way how not to play just about every hand too. and yeah i think river is a raise/fold spot and turn should definitely be a raise too obviously. flop i wouldn't know what to do and i'd have probably bet myself. but im thinking thats wrong now.

I would raise turn here, can't allow villain(s) to realize equity for cheap. We also allow villain's opportunities to bluff with scare cards.

AP, I call river.

Very good points Ava. I have a decent amount of history with this particular player, which is what leads me to believe in his potential for bluff shipping the river, even after I raise (not with 100% frequency, but I have seen him make this move or similar lots of times before. this guy is a real special gambler and enjoys putting the pressure on people). I think it's unlikely this particular guy is ever just calling our river raise, even with the set/2 pair type hands an average player might. I think this guy says to himself "I'm either going all the way or folding" in that spot. That's just based on my history with him.

But your point of raise/call it off on the river (if we believe the above) has a lot of merit. One thing I don't like about it is, I think it forces this villain into a somewhat balanced range when he does ship (even though he is not even thinking about playing balanced), and therefore a tough decision for us. He thinks a flush or flopped straight is the nuts (both obviously beat us) and maybe a set too. I think he also has a few air bluffs or maybe 2 pair turned into a bluff in the river ship range as well (but he's not doing this with 100% frequency). I just don't get real excited about stacking off 180BBs on the river here. I guess it just depends on the frequency we think he could be shipping as a bluff. This could be me trying to think at too high a level for this villain as well.

In retrospect, I should've just not played the turn like a newb, and this wouldn't be a discussion, lol

Raise the turn and do not fold.

I'm on board with everyone else here pretty much, raise the turn and call the river.