Flatting is horrible-- like a 250 lbs 60 yr-old hooker wearing a thong made out of cow liver and tuna kinda horrible.

The only thing worse than flatting the flop is open folding on the flop.

No one in LLSNL ever bet/folds this flop with ANY pair, like EVER.

The question isn't whether we raise or not. The question is merely HOW MUCH do we raise.

Not raising in this spot is not a little mistake, it is a King Kong sized mistake and equivalent to wrapping money around a dog turd and lighting it on fire.

Seriously, if you think flatting this flop is okay, you've got to do some serious internal re-calibration.

Completely disagree with this. There are plenty of weak/tight players who'll bet to "see where they are at", which is why I would recommend raising with air versus flatting with a made hand in those cases. Clearly this villain isn't one of them, so well played; but the majority of time we get all her chips on later streets anyways (but admittedly not always due to horrible scary turn cards).

ETA: I mean, seriously, dgi? No in LLSNL donks this flop with QJ/88 to see if they're good and then folds to our raise?

I like a reraise here that will pot commit her more than I like a shove. I think it was well played though knowing your villian probably calls with most of her range.

I find it more interesting how fish will donkbet a flop like this. There are a lot of posts in the MSNL and LLSNL forums on here with amateurs recommending that you donkbet and so forth. A hand like this is a perfect example of why donkbetting is 99% the wrong play. There is more to learn from villains mistake here than from hero's play.

Okay ok I misspoke. Let's say 80% ish of the time this is a "bet to see where I'm at"
What I meant to say is even if that is the case, the vast majority of Jx hands are not folding to a raise. I'd say 90% of LLSNL PLAYERS in this spot w JT are not folding to a 4x raise here...

This is correct. Optimal.raise here isn't a shove, its a raise that pot commits V so we can shove turn.

I think my.mistake is that I'm purposefully posting more aggressive advice in the 1/2nl threads to try to push the 2+2 1/2nl continuum to the aggressive side since the tendency is usually to be weak-tight passive.

To be fair, a shove here isn't optimal but it is +EV. It's just that I'm so starved for 1/2nl players to be aggressive that I'm overjoyed to finally see.a play withsome balls.

In any event, I think I'm going to retire from.posting on 1/2nl hands. I think I'll do a Farewell to 1/2nl posts soon.

I hope not, I love your posts! The vagina jokes never get old.

Agreed

Hope you stick around dgi!

GmrweakpassiveG