TL;DR Cliffs at bottom....

Over in a poker theory thread which I accidentally hi-jacked, this conversation came up..I found some pre-flop raising conversations in the "Best Of" thread anthologies but none that I felt really specifically addressed sizing as it relates to position, and to start with let's narrow it down to open-raising with no limpers.


Bet sizing leaves a lot to be argued because different tables at 1/2 NL require different raises (i.e., $6 is enough on a Sunday morning at 8 AM but an open raise is more like somewhere in the range of $9-15 dollars in the busy evenings). I am more concerned with the competing theories I've read and that's what I want to discuss here at first:

a) Increase raise size when earlier in position, and decrease size as position gets better
vs
b) Increase raise size as position at the table gets better

To quote from the other thread, here is theory A, the other poster:


And here is my (rank beginner) post, Theory B:



Cliffs:

For open pre-flop raising with no limpers at 1/2NL, does your opening size increase as you go from UTG to LP, or from Button to UTG where your open bet is largest when first to act and decreases thru the button where your open-raise is the smallest?

Thanks!

- BR

A lot of the difference is due to guides geared towards tournaments vs. cash games.

In a tournament, the stack sizes in relationship to the BB is relatively low. In the middle to end game, you really can't afford to raise and then throw away your hand to a 3bet. Nor can you just call and play fit or fold on the flop. In addition, position isn't important. The hand is going to end on the flop most of the time. If you have TP, you can't fold.

Stealing the blinds is crucial to your survival. In that situation, a raise in EP has got to be treated as a big hand. The villain can't afford to really take stabs at the blinds because everyone is so short that they may have no choice but to gamble by raising or calling. You can't set mine because there isn't enough IO to do so. Therefore, you can raise small on the flop because you won't have a weak hand in that situation. In LP, winning the blinds is so important that you have to take risks. Because of the risks, you want to be sure you aren't called, so you want to raise bigger late because everyone realizes that the blinds are important. Since Phil Gordon's "Little Green Book" is orientated to tournament play, it is going to suggest raising small early and raising big late.

In cash play, the situation is reversed. The stacks are such that people can call with speculative hands if the odds are good in position. So you want to raise more in EP. In late position, the steal isn't so critical. Position is much more important so you aren't going to get as many calls. Therefore, people are going to fold more often because there's no reason to play oop. You don't have to raise as much. People will fold just as much to smaller bets as bigger bets.

Totally agree with first quote about having the bet sizes parallel your range (at least the range you want people to think you have).

As soon as I read "Phil Gordon" in the second quote, though, I had to stop reading.

In low stakes live no limit, when holding a premium hand pre-flop, the convention tends to be to aim for a raise of around 6xbb (+1 bb for every limper and +1bb if we're in the sb or bb - because we'd rather end the hand sooner when we're oop) or to try and get around 10% of effective stacks into the pot pre-flop.

Assuming effective stacks of 100bb (not uncommon at this level), this should give you a convenient pot size for potentially getting three streets of value with an overpair or TPTK.

For example:

$1/2 NL (10 handed)
UTG ($300)
EP ($130)
EP+1($250)
MP V1 ($255)
MP+1 ($800)
MP+2 V2 ($160)
CO Hero ($260)
Button ($300)
SB ($200)
BB ($200)

Hero is dealt AA

3 folds, V1 limps, 2 folds, V2 limps, Hero raises to $14, 3 folds, V1 calls $14, fold, V2 calls $14

Flop ($45) Q,8,2
V1 checks, V2 checks, Hero bets $30, V1 calls $30, V2 folds

Turn ($105) 5

V1 checks, Hero bets $70, V1 calls $70

At this point, V1 has $141 left in his stack. I'm putting him on something like KQ, QJ, QT. Maybe he has an ultra stubborn diamond draw with a gutshot.

River ($245): T

V1 checks, Hero bets $141 (allin)

My point is that with effective stacks of around 100bb, a raise size of around 6bb that gets 10% of effective stacks into the pot preflop will typically allow us to get stacks in by the river with 3 barrells (assuming that's what we want).

So if i'm at a table with 100 BB, 1/2 NL and have KK, with no other reads or factors to impact the decision, if I'm opening the pot with no limpers in front of me, I might raise it to $13-14 UTG or UTG+1, but only $8 or 9 on the button? And that same 8-9 dollar raise on the button, if no limpers ahead, would be made with a wider range such as KJs, A9s, 88, etc? My range UTG is obviously tighter, any an raise from that position gets a bigger raise.

I guess it's unavoidable to have bet size correlated with hand strength in EP here, but in MP/LP there's a wider range of hands I'm raising with, to the same amount relative to position?

At 1/2 I have had the best success with raise more early and less late system. The reason seems to mostly have to do with quality of players and the fact that I'm never really raising to steal the blind. Against good players you can open smaller from EP because they are going to respect an EP raise more. They might try to bluff you off your hand as part of a thought out strategy, but they are not going to call with 75o just because they get lucky with that hand and they are not going to call behind just because there are a lot of people in the pot. Raising small against bad players just invites 4+ way pots and squeeze attempts by late players. As I get later around the table, I'm raising smaller because I still want 1 callers and there are fewer people to call.

meh, it really depends on the dynamic but I generally prefer a consistant 6xbb raise size (+1bb for every limper) regardless of position

if I'm raising lots of pots in position. I might go for 4xbb as I expect to be losing lots of small pots (but hopefully i'll be able to get stacks in with good equity from time to time).

How many times in an average live session (let's says 6 hours) are you looking to get stacks in? Do these spots occur in 10% of pots that go past a flop c-bet? 25%? More?

I'm really trying to understand more of poker than Raise/C-Bet/ 2nd barrel which has crushed my home game for years, for casino play with significantly higher stakes wonder if I should be pushing stack in more often or less often and that will help me with Pre-flop play regarding how I approach a hand from the very start. So it's related to pre raise sizing.

Thanks! Learning a ton here.

- BR

I'm with the raise big from EP and small from LP crowd. I actually want to play flops with people, and want them to call. This makes me a value oriented player. Thus with fewer players left to act, it's less likely they will call a big raise. If it's folded to me on the button and I make it $20, even the fishiest of players usually arent calling, simply because nobody else has shown interest. I'll even go so low as to make it $7 if I have to. However I can raise $20 utg at that exact same table and almost always expect 1 person to call no matter what, and quite often several others due to the mob mentality of it all. Fish call when other fish call, whether they realize their odds are better or not.

Now if 6 people have limped to me on the button, I'll go ahead and make that $20 raise because I expect one of the limpers to flat behind. It's all about what I think they'll call, since I expect to always have either a better hand preflop, or a hand that plays better postflop. I'm basically never bluffing, even when I'm bluffing.

Stakes shouldn't have anything to do with it. It is a matter of stack sizes relative to the blinds. With 50bb your pushing any decent hand hard, with 200bb against another deep stack, you need to be more careful. When you both have 500bb or more, all-in should be very rare and both players should have near nut hands or monster draws.

That said, in practice the stakes do make a difference because the villains change their play. You need to adjust to what the opponents are doing in each situations. At 1/2 the preflop raises are more, people chase more draws and call down with weaker hands because the money isn't that big in their minds. This forces you to play for more straight value rather then bluffing or betting draws.

If you find yourself in a situation where you start playing to cautiously because the money is too much, your playing too deep and it is time to leave or find a lower stake table.

At my 1/2 game I raise to 10 from utg to the lj. Then 8 on the hj 7 on the co and 6 on the btn. Basically what ever I have I'm only looking for 1 or 2 callers.

Ha, I remember I posted a very similar thread question in here when I was just getting into NL, cuz I had read different things regarding opening like 3x in EP vs 2.5x in MP vs 2x in LP and vice versa for various reasons that all seemed to make sense, plus how to add for each limper, etc.

Throw it all out the window, IMO. Raise an amount that will likely get things HU, and preferably in position. So obviously this all has to do with table dynamics and the type of players who have already limped and the type of players we have yet to act behind us. There's no magic Xx number.

Also, in the typical case against a fit/fold player, the more $$$ we get in preflop to get it HU in position with initiative, the more $$$ we make on average on our 1/2 PSB cbet stabs on the flop. ETA: So, I'm actually against the idea of raising smaller in LP when folded to; hopefully by this time we've conditioned the table that we just come in for a bigger raise than anyone else (i.e. I often get complaints by players, two seconds before they call).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Sorry - the 1/2 stakes don't intimidate me. What I meant to say is that playing for 1/2 has inspired me to learn about and improve upon my game. Bet/cbet/barrel crushes .05/.10 game with weak/passives. Here at 1/2 I've want to learn more theory and improve my value-bet game in particular. I can't just get by trying to run over the table (where I have more of a mix of calling stations and some trickier or observant villains).

So with 100 BB at the start of a hand, looking to get 10% of stacks in pre- with strong starting hands (or even some high suited connectors from LP), and a goal of stack vs stack by the turn with....1 hand a night too little? 5-6 hands a night too spewy? I know each hand individually will have too too many variables, but much like VPIP it must converge on some approximate number...

Personally in live low stakes depending on the tables tendencies I raise (1-2NL) 12+2 for every limper. If the table is loose passive ill bump it to 13+2 etc. At a tight table might drop down to 10 or 11.

To add on that, lets say Im opening $12 in EP & I keep getting 3+ callers Ill make my standard 13-15. I generally stick to this rule. Whatever my standard UTG raise is at the table Im sitting at I will add 2 for every limper.

You can never raise too much at 1-2... Calling stations will eventually get "sick and tired" of you raising big amounts and they start adjusting by calling with a wider range.

On many occasions Ive had people call my $18 raises OOP with K-8 type hands with $200 stacks just because ive made them frustrated.

The biggest leak I see from some recreational players is when 3-4 ppl limp to them and they raise to 8-12 from the button. They basically invite everyone in.