I'm surprised that is your main game, as you post very good advice in this forum.

Sol, I've played both in a 1/2 uncapped game as well as the standard 1/2. In the uncapped game, I would be pretty excited to see A5 UTG, because it made up the fun part of my ep opening range. In this game, standard opens were $15, most stacks were $2-$5k. So a hand like A5s added some real value to your range for several different reasons. In this game Id also open fold AJo UTG.

Referencing rio videos and others, honestly I have never seen anything that speaks to the particulars of a live game. I've watched what has to be over thousands of training videos at this point. The one key thing they all miss is just how multiway live poker plays, and second just how low spr always is. Last night, on a random Tuesday, 10x opens were literally going 6-7 ways in my 2/5 game. Some stacks were > $1000. Some were 100bb. And the rest were $200 and snap rebuying every other hand. This is obviously a very difficult dynamic to play anything but ABC and ABC in this sense is giving greater value to a hand like AJo than you would to A5s for the simple reason Thamel mentioned.

That said, unless I'm seeing some spectacular spew or the table is particularly tight, I'm also open folding AJo.

If more training videos and/or discussion topics talked about "the shared equity of the field" (what I call it), Id actually be interested in learning again. I truly would like to know what an exploitable AI would do in a 40-120bb line up where 5-8 players are vpiping 30%-40% of hands and are inelastic to 3x-10x opens and never 3bet.

If 4x-6x were the standard online (as it is live) A5s wouldn't even sniff a solvers utg range until things got very deep. I wasn't sure if you covered open sizing in the other thread but it's a pretty big piece of the puzzle that I haven't seen mentioned here.

Edit: well ava just mentioned it I see.

You do realize a lot of the "decent" regs are just marginal winners or just "regfish," right? And that they rely a lot on rakeback? If you're opening 20% from UTG 6-max with 3-4 good regs behind you, you're basically begging to get punished. And you will be.

The training sites are just not for the vast majority of players. Yeah sure Doug and Ryan fee can open A5s from UTG 6-max because they are crushers. Even then, I'm confident that it's almost indifferent to folding and even if they do manage to win with A2s-A5s, it's so marginal it's negligible. They also advocate newer players to open trash like 54s/75s from UTG. I can guarantee anyone who isn't a crusher is going to bleed money playing these hands. Yeah sure it's good strategy for crushers, but let's all face it, crushers are few and far between.

And frankly, most training videos nowadays are pretty outdated if you're looking to become a top player in poker in the coming future. A lot of them are borderline bad, and a lot of them are not applicable to most of the poker players trying to beat their current limit.

Obviously, I wouldn't be making such bold assertions if I didn't have anything to back it up. So assuming that I'm making "random assumptions" about stuff "I know nothing about" is ludicrous and quite arrogant of you.

I play mid-stakes online and beat my latest limit for 11BB/100 playing 24/20 w/ a 10% 3-bet. I don't open any crap like A2s-A8s UTG or 9 high SCs. And the regs especially are still doing crazy **** like 5-bet bluff shoving suited wheel aces vs me 160bb deep, 3-betting super light from any position even vs my UTG raise, and playing back at me whenever possible. I play pretty good poker, but I wouldn't say I'm a crusher enough to be playing 32/28 14% 3-bet & still turn out 10BB+/100 against the tough competition. If you think you can do it, then by all means be my guest.

^^^
Actually A5s is in the upswing full ring UTG opening range as well. Specifically A5s... as in ATs+ and A5s.

But otherwise I have nothing to add to this religious debate.


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Yeah maybe Doug can get away with opening A5s from UTG 9-max, but I'm confident that the other 99.99% of poker players can't show a profit opening A5s from UTG. Just because a HU nosebleeds stake specialist tells you to do xyz for LLSNL or whatever game you're playing doesn't mean you should do it.

ATs+ from UTG is pretty borderline but that's fine. A2s-A5s is just never okay unless there are very specific table dynamics. Nobody 3-bets light, everyone is 300bb-500bb & super fishy, everyone is super loose-passive and not bluff-happy postflop, people stack off 200-400bb deep light, etc.

I respect Doug a lot and have learned a lot from him. He's one of the best in the world. But it's obvious his main expertise is nowhere in LLSNL or live poker cash games in general that are not the nosebleeds. If you watch his HS youtube videos of him playing cash games vs recreationals, he spews out quite a # of buy-ins for the "sake of balance" in spots where his plays are clear as day -EV. So yeah, his advocating for all other players to open suited wheel aces UTG 9-handed is pretty questionable for a lot of reasons.

This and this.

Especially regarding the low SPR. At 100bb tables with big raises and multiwayness, the SPR can easily typically be <= 4, making playing anything other than premium hands kinda lol. It's actually taken me a long time to finally come around to this realization (or, mainly, realizing that my table has changed from a passive limp fest to an aggro raisey fest).

GimoG

How does opening A5s UTG equate to opening 20% UTG? Would love to see your graphs and stats for these mid stakes online games you're beating handily. a 22/17 reg would open A5s for sure, I don't see how an alleged 24/20 wouldn't open it.


Also A5s doesn't need high SPR to be profitable, people keep repeating that for some reason?

In low spr scenarios villains are able to fully realize their equity, and therefore we'd want hands that win at showdown unimproved.

While A5s is one of those odd birds that has both real and potential showdown equity, I think most would agree that it benefits a great deal from fold equity and overall range balancing.

For example when I Cbet heads up on J24 with A5 I'm playing/realizing my ranges equity but also making villain incorrectly fold his equity.

Online, even at 25NL, I can open A5s UTG and I fully expect to go 2-3 ways. Like, going 4 ways is pretty unusual. And by that same token I actually feel pretty good on A72 in a singly raised pot. This is because villains are capped at like exactly AT/J/Qs in their cold calling ranges and even those 3bet at some frequency.

Whereas again live all Axo are wide open so it will be very difficult for us to fully realize our hands equity. We certainly won't realize it on J24, but we likely won't realize it on A72 either.

I'm not sure 3x opening A5s UTG in a live 1/2 setting loses much money but it's just totally unnessary, because of the anecdotes I stated initially itt. I do think referencing Rio videos shows that we are at an inpass, because as I initially stated I believe there is alot of unexplored study to be had concerning vast multiway fields (villains in a sense share equity and can be thought of as a collective of colluders) and this is just never explored in any training/study.

I think an exploitative AI (I prefer the term adaptable), would have some surprising traits when faced with the dynamics of live play. I think it would likely have a limping game. And I think it would cbet much more than most people would guess. And finally I think it would go full ham with a hand like AJo. All just guesses of course. Though I'm pretty confident on the cbetting one.

This is an extremely interesting sentence. I believe that it is a shining example of the cute contradictions that our minds try to convince us of when playing a game like poker.

Because with low SPRs like this the hand is going to be over on the flop (with a raise) or at the turn at the very latest. This is simply big starting hand territory, and A5s simply ain't going to be the biggest hand on the flop anywhere remotely near the amount of times it needs to be (it mostly needs to get to the turn/river to realize it's flush/straight making ability with significant money behind in order to make up for the money it is putting in behind on early streets, something it will rarely be able to do in these low SPR pots).

GimoG

I'm guessing this is with regards to my hatred of raising with big hands in EP and going multiway to low SPR pots? While I admittedly don't like those spots (as I feel I'm grasping at straws postflop), I won't go so far as saying they are unprofitable spots. What I will say (and believe, although obviously most disagree) is that there is a far more easier play (and, my belief, a far more profitable play), which is limp reraising. I mean, if we have guys opening junk like A5s in EP and getting called in multiple spots, we're printing money by limp/reraising our big hands while also setting up trivial situations for ourselves at the same time.

GimoG

No, I quoted the whole sentence that I was talking about b/c it was so contradictory. The more multiway a pot goes, regardless of the SPR, the more a hand like A5s rates to be a value raise preflop, n'est pa?

You'd have to show me some poker stoves to convince me of that, especially since the raise will often eliminate some of the dominated hands we'd rather stay in to increase that equity. Heck, I wouldn't even raise this hand in a Limit game (and Limit is all about capitalizing on equity advantages per street). And still, as discussed, even if we did have a slight equity advantage (which I'm not convinced we do, even if we somehow guaranteed a check to showdown postflop) we're rarely going to be able to realize that equity in low SPR pots where all the chips are going to go in on early streets when we're the ones way behind.

GimoG

https://ibb.co/m85xsa

And that's me running quite bad for the past at least 5k+ hands I've been playing. Just to note, my C All-In Adjusted isn't working for some reason.

It's not that I never open A5s/A4s. It's probably around 70%+ I don't open, since a lot of players are 3-bet happy at 200NL. And once you start opening even wider, you'll get abused by good aggro regs esp if they have position on you. I'm only opening it if the people behind me defend way more by flat-calling than 3-betting, and if there are 1 or 2 big fish in the blinds. Even then, I'm sure it's very marginal.

Uh if 1/2 & 1/3 donks are overcalling/cold-calling A6+ at a high frequency (which they are), you're in big trouble with A2s-A5s when you flop TP in an SPR of 3-4. I think GG can be kind of nitty, esp because I play pretty spewy, but what he's posting regarding A5s ITT is some pretty good stuff.

And how do you plan on making profitable barrels/bluffs when you have no room to move someone off 2nd/TP in a low SPR pot with your wheel draw/backdoor flush draw? That's the value of A5s. Barreling with equity. And if you can't do that or have close to zero fold equity both preflop & postflop (cough cough LLSNL), then A5s is pure trash from EP.

It's hard to make a pair in holdem. And if you think 4-6 people to the flop means all (or even any) of the other aces are out, well, your games play a lot different than mine.

Worrying about keeping dominated hands in with A5 is kinda like limping to overflush someone. Good luck with that.

I dont actually play live poker, but after roaming the forums for a # of years, I can say that people love to call preflop raises with a lot of Ax, any Axss. Im pretty sure people arent coming to the casino to fold most Ax when they get dealt 25 hands/hr. Well at least the fish and recs

Ofc this isnt true where I play on mid-stakes online, but I have other reasons for not opening wheel aces UTG 6-max most of the times

Of course. They also like to call those same raises with KQ, KJ, KT, K9, QJ, QT, Q9, JT, J9, T9, 98, etc.

I'm pretty sure people aren't coming to the casino to fold most anything when they get dealt 25 hands/hr. At least, not preflop.

A5s is normally a fold for me utg in live 2/5 and 5/10 games, its situationally playable depending on how aggro the table is (and if there are empty seats) and gets better with deeper stacks but its really marginal at best

I'm almost always opening this hand UTG in my 2/5 & 5/T games (lineup depending obv) - but I just sat in a 1/2 game with my friend yesterday for the first time in forever, and opening A5s UTG would be lighting money on fire at those stakes imo.

Before I respond to the posts, I need to advise that I am quite aware that those I am responding to have an immense amount of hours study/playing, that I don't have. Thus, my replies evolve from a lack of understanding your reasoning, not questioning it.

[QUOTE=Sol Reader;52283262]How does opening A5s UTG equate to opening 20% UTG? Would love to see your graphs and stats for these mid stakes online games you're beating handily. a 22/17 reg would open A5s for sure, I don't see how an alleged 24/20 wouldn't open it.

I use, as a default, Janda's o/r ranges from his AONLH book. A5s is included in his range for opening in the HJ seat & part of a 17% range:
A5s; A7s+; KTs; 75s+; 54s+; ATo+; 22+

His opening range, UTG in a 6 handed game: 22+, 65s+; J9s+; any 2 suited broadway cards; AJo+; KQo+

His ranges, however, revolve around on-line play. They are also built around 6 handed tables. How your opponents play, IMO, is the primary factor in what hands you play.


I need to know what you would o/r to in a 1/2 or 1/3 game. 4BBs? If I o/r UTG with A5s in my typical 1/2NL games [or $12 in 1/3NL] I will often get a waterfall of calls, if not a squeeze play.

The waterfall is nice, but the squeeze play not so much.

I still don't see how A5 works UTG. Example: I o/r to $8 [1/2NL] & get 3 callers. FLOP: A83r 1 .

I c-bet? Well many OMCs just call behind pre with their AJ+ and will call that flop. Your youngsters are calling pre with A8s, A3s. Even AXo OTB.

Now if the blinds folded, the pot is $31 after the rake going into the Flop. So, I'd bet $17, as there is another $2 to be raked from the pot.

Are you playing this hand this way? How do we play this hand OOP so that we net a +Ev long term?

Before I respond to the posts, I need to advise that I am quite aware that those I am responding to have an immense amount of hours study/playing, that I don't have. Thus, my replies evolve from a lack of understanding your reasoning, not questioning it.

This I can wrap my head around. What about raising in LP with it? I've had success raising a limped pot, with 4+ callers, to 4BBs +1 for each limper with A5s+.
How I stand +Ev long term is unknown, but it hasn't stung me. Unless, I'm just not noticing it. I do notice the nice pots I win when OMC, with his AK, calls me down to the River after I flop a flush draw & turn 2 pair & no broadway card ever falls. Just can't overbet the pot.