It is accurate - because of (see below - short handed play)



#1 is key indeed. Would be very cool to read other similar stories - please share.

+1

Although the idea of thinking about your opponents cards (even before your own) is a pretty neat one (and one that I don't do nearly enough). But at my kiddie tables level, it could certainly lead to spew if we're not careful and picking our spots wisely.

GplayingatthekiddietableG

Wish I remembered that last night when I shoved a naked bluff against a relative unknown for 125BB last night.

@GG / Garick / others pointing out applying this to LLSNL:

Thinking of your opponent's hand/range first is not just for bluffs - it should play very much into your value bet sizing

(It is also how to find thin value)

I've never heard the term "hand grieving" did you make that up? I like it.

Ya, my value bet sizing (and especially thin value spots) is not where it should be. I've been fairly disgusted with the amount of money I feel like I'm leaving on the table in some situations. I think part of it isn't necessarily not ranging the villain correctly but rather not having the conviction to follow thru with my reads.

GwussG

this is true but squid haz a pro tip for y'all

the dude that shows he can make a fold (ie flashes a k on a k high board and mucks when he gets heat)

THIS IS YOUR MAN. not the ****** than cant fold 2nd pr on a sick coordinated board

bips poast is the essence of teh street pokerz.

Lurker here.

+1 million times this.

A light went off when I read "hand grieving".

I get entitled to the pot and spew (and berate myself later). the post on what you do to get thin value is fantastic as well.

Editing because I forgot to post my question - dumb q but here goes.
At your stakes do you mask that you are a good player to ensure you get action? Or Do you get action regardless due to Vs egos, general cluelessness?


Thanks Bip!

Just getting home from a nice session (+$5400) that actually included me losing $4500 in an $11k total pot... so I am in a reflective mood right now.

(The hand itself was not that special although I should never have been in that spot... bloated pot pre, cold called $2k raise too thin OTF with inside wrap expecting 3 way action and original raiser let me down by folding - then I called the rest off on blank turn - whiffed river too. It was almost a $1k mistake EV wise.)

OOP is very tough to do any kind of float-bluff. I would need more info on your hand (stacks sizes, preflop action, positions, images/reads) to weigh in. But in general:
- Hand 1: If you ranged your opponent on something < top pair on that flop because of his bet size, then the turn lead is fine - but a check-raise and turn continuation is more effective than heading to the turn OOP without initiative.

-Hand 2: Too little info here - but that doesn't seem like a great spot to float the flop without some stellar reads on your opponent. Also, most opponents at LLSNL have no idea they bet "1/3 pot" or "1/2 pot" - they only size their bets based on the last bet. i.e. As even you said, you "bet 2x" what your opponent did on the previous street. Often, when it goes 5 ways to the flop, you see < 1/2 pot bets OTF because the opponent thinks they are betting big vs the pre-flop bet (but they aren't doing the math to figure a 5-way pot size)

Happy to have you in the thread and awesome that you are working on your poker game. The way someone presents their HHs tells a lot about their level of play (what relevant info is missing, did they have a plan before each street?, etc). I am giving you some straight shot constructive advice. You were playing without any reason street to street in those two hands and basically "clicking buttons". The thing to start focusing on with your game is ranging players. Basic details like position, preflop action, image, stack depths are all missing from your HHs which means you are not considering them in your strategy. GL.

how small a pool do you play in? I play in a town with tons of LLSNL action and very select mid-stakes action. The 5/5 PLO game probably has ~30 regular players.

from memory there are a few big whales.
do you have a sense of how much of your WR they contribute?
There is a player that must have something close to -100 bb /hr loss rate. However, he is not a regular player anymore.

When a player like that is in a small player pool though - the impact is enormous. It keeps so many mediocre players afloat which grows the player pool (no attrition). It inflates bankrolls of winning players. It then escalates the stakes, rinse, repeat... and.. however.. eventually it attracts out of town pros because your room spreads a soft game that runs like clockwork.

In just 1 year the game has changed tremendously. New pros were hatched locally- other pros moved here.

The conditions for making poker pros is more about right time - right place, more so than skill prerequisites. There are thousands of people who can comprehend the strat to play poker, but the catalyst is having that soft game for launch. Experience and bankroll cannot be picked up on a forum or from a book. To win in my game now requires 10x the skill that it did 2 years ago. (that is not because the national scene has become so much tougher - just that this local bubble of "soft" popped up here)

So what I am saying is basically: whale = pro hatchery. The game won't stay soft forever. Eventually the whale slows down and the game will settle back down to a natural equilibrium. And then you are left with an overcrowded market of pros... which will weed out the weaker ones.. possibly turn the best ones (those fit for higher stakes) into vikings - setting sail for new land. (often LA or Vegas.. or tournament followers)

how are you/your game viewed by them [whales]?
Be a friendly, engaging, genuine person - and it doesn't matter how much you win. Most people want to play poker with people who are enjoyable to play with. And it is never too late to get this right... I hit and run the games in the beginning (before understanding etiquette) - but I studied up on how to behave and fixed my bad habits quickly. I might not win as much now (no hyper seat changing, no hit-n-running, etc) - but I have a big network of players who welcome me in the game and keep me informed.

do you have an image that you cultivate or try to avoid?
I certainly have an image - very loose and wild - but I don't really force that image... it is just how my play appears to some people. Sharper eyes know better, but most rec players think I great action for a table.

do you believe many of the other better regs much have a good handle on your game?
Certainly - yes. Although I don't play that often with the top pros.. they are in the main game - I am doing work short handed in the feeder. One luxury of only needing 4~5 hours sessions.

What really kills the fold equity at 1/2 and 1/3 is how shallow those games play. Yes - admittedly - I do not always adjust properly.

Yeah - I made that up. I think it fits really well. I remember first hearing the term "card funeral" for that show people put on when mucking at showdown.. so it is an extension of that term.

I fell victim to it tonight.. in the big pot I mentioned at the top of this post. I was so excited I was going to get to call $600 into $2200 with a nut 9-outer, that I couldn't let it go when a surprise raise came.

^ da truff (or however skwid would spell it )

Also brings up a good lesson - never show anyone what you are capable of folding. You really don't want to be a bluff target - it makes poker very hard.

I don't mask anything. Some people form their own errant conclusions. If they think someone who will bluff off their stack is a donkey.. then they see a donkey.

So much truth in that.

I intentionally took an extended break from a poker room for close to a year, and when I came back, there were at least a handful of regs that I hadn't seen before.

Started playing again regularly, and in about 3-4 months, those regs disappeared.