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PAHWM: Q10s on button PAHWM: Q10s on button

08-29-2016 , 08:41 AM
1/3 game
Hero: ($650) has a very aggressive image. Has lost a couple of small all ins to double up short stacks and has mucked each hand so opponents may feel like he's had nothing.

V1: ($350) is in small blind. Fairly unremarkable middle aged white guy.

V2: (covers) is in big blind. Younger black guy, has been winning a number of pots but seems to be getting luckier rather than good. Is a tourist in this room.

OTTH:

Table folds to hero on button with Q10 of spades. What's the pre flop action?
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 08:47 AM
$12. Next
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 08:48 AM
Can open small with our whole range when it folds to us on the button. $10 is my standard sizing here.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 08:52 AM
Raise to $10-$12
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 09:03 AM
Ask if they're gonna chop and if so fold so the game can slide completely into the muck.

Seriously tho. My std open at 1/3 is $15 from other posns $10 is prolly fine btn v blinds but I'd go 12 with my whole range in this spot.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 09:11 AM
Ok let's move on then.

Hero opens $15.

SB folds, BB calls.

Reads on BB: seems to call fairly wide preflop and on flop but has an understanding of hand strengths. In only big hand I've seen him show down: LP raised to $13, SB three bet to $45, V cold called in BB, PFR called. Flop 10-8-9, SB bets $100, V calls, LP calls all in for less. Turn is 7x, SB shoves for $150 with KK and gets snapped by V with JJ.

OTTH ($31):
Qh7s4s

V leads for $25. Hero?
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 09:14 AM
Call and dont fold any turn cards
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 09:21 AM
call
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 09:28 AM
Raise to $75....call is fine, but I raise.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 10:14 AM
Of the different things that could occur here, I think the worst outcome of any action would be that you raise, he calls, and then you miss the turn and have a bloated pot that the V might x/c on. If you don't think he's likely to re-raise for stacks with QA, QK, QJ, KK or AA, then I'm probably calling the flop and re-evaluating the turn, hoping for a spade or 10 (obviously) or even a 3 or 8 (which you might be able to semi-bluff to blow him off TPTK or equivalent).

You're probably about 47% against his whole range though so I don't know that getting in for stacks is a terrible option here. Just high variance. But there's almost no way to get in for stacks on that flop, so I vote call.

Last edited by HawkesDave; 08-29-2016 at 10:19 AM.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 10:19 AM
I call. Obviously folding not an option. I don't like a raise trying to get him to lay down a better hand than we have, so that means it has to be a value raise. I'm not sure we're ahead enough against his donking range that decides to continue to justify a value raise.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 10:25 AM
I know that a lot of people will fold QJ/KQ here. They fold it to me a lot. If he calls, hes ahead of me and not folding the turn hardly ever so I just take the free card. He will almost never lead the turn.

If you call, he will likely bet at least $50 (probably more) on the turn. Why not just put the $25+$50-$75 in on the flop while he might fold a better hand?
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
I know that a lot of people will fold QJ/KQ here. They fold it to me a lot. If he calls, hes ahead of me and not folding the turn hardly ever so I just take the free card. He will almost never lead the turn.

If you call, he will likely bet at least $50 (probably more) on the turn. Why not just put the $25+$50-$75 in on the flop while he might fold a better hand?
If people will fold better Qs to your raise here, then raising may be fine. I would not expect an unknown to fold a better Q where I play, but we're playing different games and presumably have different images.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 10:47 AM
Any info we have on his donking range would be helpful. If we think he would do this with a naked draw, then raising is best. If his donking range is mostly middling value hands (A7o or Q9o here, for example), then raising is awful because he will dump most of that range to a flop raise.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIB211
If people will fold better Qs to your raise here, then raising may be fine. I would not expect an unknown to fold a better Q where I play, but we're playing different games and presumably have different images.
Would you raise AA/KK here?
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 10:53 AM
Hero says he's playing an aggressive game and in this hand he's opening an unlimped/unopened pot on the BTN for a standard size (and I'm assuming it's far from the first BTN he's opened, he's probably opening 30-40%+). I don't think the villain is just going to roll over and die with QK/QJ just because the hero raises the flop. When the raise doesn't work, you're stuck with a bloated pot and a villain who may not be going anywhere with top pair.

Hero and villain are deep and villain may not respect the hero's range. Unless you find a way to put this all-in on the flop I think a raise on the flop is going to make for a very nasty decision on the turn. If I'm going to try to push the villain off this pot here, I'd rather do it with an oversized bet on the turn when the pot is only $81 going in, rather than $160 going in.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Would you raise AA/KK here?
Generally yes. With an OP, I'm now way ahead of his donking range, which I assume is something like top pair, maybe JJ-88, some spade draws or 56, some sets and a small bit of spaz. I either don't block the spade draws at all with those hands, or only block one spade, so he's more likely to be drawing (which I do discount some based on sizing of the flop donk, which is almost pot-sized), so raise is for value and to protect. Would probably also raise for value with AQ, especially no spades.

If I'm bluffing here, I'd rather do it with a hand that doesn't have showdown value. I'd rather bluff-raise the NFD here for instance and hope to fold out a pair worse than a queen or very weak top pair.

Edited to add - I also wouldn't exclude AA or KK from V's range. I for some reason see these get flatted more and more pre, especially AA.

Last edited by MIB211; 08-29-2016 at 11:12 AM.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 11:09 AM
I've got 12 outs vs. AQ/KQ/QJ, so I call. I'd have to be 100% certain that he would never 3-bet OTF & that is not possible.

Please bring me a ten on the turn! Mo money with the ten than with a spade......and, if he got lucky & flopped a set, I've got me some [11?] outs going into the River.

Problem with calling OTF, is that he probably puts your range on flush draw with maybe a queen, or 1/2 overs to the queen. So, he'll probably bomb the turn if he concludes you missed.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
I know that a lot of people will fold QJ/KQ here. They fold it to me a lot. If he calls, hes ahead of me and not folding the turn hardly ever so I just take the free card. He will almost never lead the turn.

If you call, he will likely bet at least $50 (probably more) on the turn. Why not just put the $25+$50-$75 in on the flop while he might fold a better hand?
If he 3-bets to say $200-250 after you raise, are you calling or folding?
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 11:19 AM
worse hands aren't calling a raise, better hands really shouldn't be folding, and we should be behind if we gii on the flop, so raising accomplishes little. We are targeting QJ, KQ for a fold? Just call imo
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIB211
If he 3-bets to say $200-250 after you raise, are you calling or folding?
I'll throw that same question back at you if you raise with AA/KK. Id rather have QsTs than AA/KK if that happens
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
I'll throw that same question back at you if you raise with AA/KK. Id rather have QsTs than AA/KK if that happens
I'm folding if he 3-bets me and I have AA/KK. Against an unknown assume the 3-bet is basically a set and I just let it go. I'm OK with that with an overpair, because I'm smoked and only have two cards to improve. Much worse to have to fold the flush draw.

What do you do with QTss?
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIB211
I'm folding if he 3-bets me and I have AA/KK. Against an unknown assume the 3-bet is basically a set and I just let it go. I'm OK with that with an overpair, because I'm smoked and only have two cards to improve. Much worse to have to fold the flush draw.

What do you do with QTss?
I would fold QTs also if he 3 bet that big and I agree he has a set or AA/KK himself most of the time, but if hero has AA/KK, then villain could also have a big draw and now he forced you to fold the best hand.

If hero raises QTs here and gets 3 bet, then the odds are much higher that villain has a set (since hero has the draw). Odds are much lower that hero folds the best hand in my situation.....Its possible that villain has AsXc, but less likely when hero has 2 spades
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
I would fold QTs also if he 3 bet that big and I agree he has a set or AA/KK himself most of the time, but if hero has AA/KK, then villain could also have a big draw and now he forced you to fold the best hand.

If hero raises QTs here and gets 3 bet, then the odds are much higher that villain has a set (since hero has the draw). Odds are much lower that hero folds the best hand in my situation.....Its possible that villain has AsXc, but less likely when hero has 2 spades
I think you're overstating the importance of your draw blockers with QTss if V 3-bets the flop. What's V's 3-bet range here? 7 set combos clearly. Let's also give him 5s6s. Does he 3-bet a naked NFD? I wouldn't expect that from an unknown. So give him AsKs for the two overs. Also give him AsQs when we have the overpair. That's really the only draw you block with QsTs that is losing to an overpair, and that draw is flipping with KK and still doing pretty well against AA.

If I have an overpair in this spot, I insta-fold KK, since best case scenario he has the NFD with one over, and a lot of times he has the set. I also insta-fold all AA combos that have the A of spades. I think harder about the combos without the A of spades, but still probably fold without a read that V is very aggressive.
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote
08-29-2016 , 12:05 PM
Quote:
would fold QTs also if he 3 bet that big and I agree he has a set or AA/KK himself most of the time, but if hero has AA/KK, then villain could also have a big draw and now he forced you to fold the best hand.
So when you have QTs, villain has a set, but when you have AA/KK, villain might be doing it with a draw as well?
PAHWM: Q10s on button Quote

      
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