Yeah, a bigger bet is probably better here. I have a habit of c-betting air and betting made hands on the flop closer to 1/2-2/3 PSB to keep things consistent as a general rule. May be something I should work on. Out of curiosity, if hero holds A5 instead of KK what is your bet size?

This PAHWM is specific, as it will play not from my POV, but from my opponents view. There is a reason for this, that I will explain later.

Reads:
The table is just getting started, probably 3rd orbit or so. The play is 7 handed.

Villain 1. [$200] 40 y.o. white collar recreational player, LP pre, sometimes fast with draws post, overvalues made hands, has trouble finding fold button. Is well rolled for $1/2, could play $5/10 but doesn't want the stress.

Hero. [$300] 20ish y.o. Online MTT Pro. Plays TAG (I mean really tight and aggressive, not "tag"). Plays a really tight range of pre hands, never limps, rarely calls. But plays well post flop, bluffing and folding as necessary. Viewed as a strong tight player by the table.

Villain 2. [$200] 18 y.o. Young LAG (I really mean loose and aggressive, thought he has some overcalling issues preflop, so not truly LAG) recreational player, sticky, creative and not afraid of high variance.

Villain 3 (elcebro). [$400] Is young white regular. Usually plays AG, not really loose because field in this place is stronger, compared to others and people don't allow him to run them over.

Actual stacksize +-$20 from the above numbers but this is non essencial.

Pre flop:
Villain 1 limps from UTG.
Hero has KK raises $12 from UTG+1.
Villain 2 calls $12 from SB.
Villain 3 calls $12 from BB.
Villain 1 calls $12 from UTG.

Flop:
764
[Pot: $48]
Villains check to Hero.
Hero bets $36.
Villain 2 tank folds.
Villain 3 calls quickly $36.
Villain 1 folds.

Turn:
764J
[Pot: $120]
Villain 3 bets $50.
Hero ..?

hero shoves.

this really looks like villain has JhTh or QhJh. Its also possible villain has a set here, but i think we hear from him sooner/louder than this. hand like AhKh AhQh are entirely in my range, and I think if villain has a set, he's betting this bigger. With a $50 turn bet, villain isn't afraid of a flush draw at all.

Looks like v3 trying to give himself a good price to showdown with a draw.

Why not raise bigger pre? Shooting 35-40 into 1 or 2 is a lot easier than 4. I think capable regs see the 12 flop as a yawn call with ATC. Esp against the Inet kid who has been running well. I make it 16-18 pre from that spot for two reasons, it thins the field to HU or 3 way and opens from EP seem to invite bluff spots against competent oponents . They love the action OOP, but all won't call that number.

As played
Assuming V1 isnt giving off some kind of physical tell bet 35. If he raises I'd fold. He makes me nervous.

I'd rather not go 4ways to the flop with an overpair. But since stacks are a big biggish (we've got 150 BBs and at least one other has us covered) a bigger raise might not accomplish a narrower field, so maybe an average raise combined with playing good postflop poker is ok. I also wouldn't mind a limp/reraise attempt, especially with aggros behind us.

In cases like this with deepish stacks, I think I bet/fold $30. Most opponents typically don't want to play for 100+ BBs on a draw, so if we do get raised we're most likely way behind or at best against an awesome draw.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Tough spot on the turn. If we call, we're going to have about a PSB left on the river and this aggy player could easily put us to the test by shoving.

For me, this really comes down to how Hero and Villain have been playing tonight. The more Villain has been trying to bluff people off hands, the more I try to get to showdown; ditto if I've been run over a lot tonight. Otherwise, I think I consider folding the turn when my hand really does seem face up. I guess we can call and re-evaluate the river, but if we know he's most likely to lead a large bet (or shove) on the river, I'm not sure if that has any merit.

GtryingnottogobrokewithonepairG

I agree with this, but I have also learned the fish aren't really paying terribly close attention. They either want to play the pot or they don't. Heck, I bet most aren't even counting the pot well enough to know if you bet 3/4 or 2/3 or 1/2. They just watch the dollars, and if it's in "their price range," they continue....or if they are drawing to a huge hand that can win a huge pot.

As for A 5, I bet the same $40-$45. However, I don't mind ending the hand at all at this point....but don't mind getting called, either.

Typically, since you asked about yourself, I will size everything the same, too. My usual dry flop cbet is 1/2ish. I bet the same for value, though. Wet boards get up to 3/4 or a click below psb. And, whether I'm cbetting the wet board or hold KK on it, I'm betting the same. So, from that aspect, you can't pick anything up on me, either.....not that they are.

I hate this turn donk. It really puts me to a decision....did he just gin (and is just that stupid) or is he trying to price his draw?

With KK, I'm leaning to raising him here thinking if he flopped the str8 or set, kudos. If he flopped it, why would he c/c such a wet board and then donk a seemingly blank turn?

I really struggle with what his thinking is here. (I know it's our OP.) I think I have to raise him here and pray he did this as a block.

If I know OP going into this hand, and know he can be aggressive and LAGgy, I think his sets would play the flop fast like a draw. If I know him in advance, I can't see this being a super strong line. But, I only need to see it once to remember it....

At this point, I'm putting V on a set or A5

I'm leaning toward a call, and reassess the river. Is this too passive? I'm torn between charging the draw and not wanting to fall into a trap.

Answering questions.
Being IP and playing better then Villains, you want to get some money into the pot with KK.
$12 is about right amount that makes blinds fold more often then not, but for sure keeps limp/calling fish in the hand. Hero has a tightish image, so he doesn't want to scare all action away.

As to why play this table - except hero and blinds, all over players are LP fish with deep pockets.

As per Hero-Villain rivalry - it is non existent, we are actually poker friends (doesn't stop us from stacking each over) but we are not going for each overs throats.

To those advocating a call. If villain shoves, what river card do you fold?

OK I guess we lost it.

Summimg up:

This PAHWM is specific, as it will play not from my POV, but from my opponents view. There is a reason for this, that I will explain later.

Reads:
The table is just getting started, probably 3rd orbit or so. The play is 7 handed.

Villain 1. [$200] 40 y.o. white collar recreational player, LP pre, sometimes fast with draws post, overvalues made hands, has trouble finding fold button. Is well rolled for $1/2, could play $5/10 but doesn't want the stress.

Hero. [$300] 20ish y.o. Online MTT Pro. Plays TAG (I mean really tight and aggressive, not "tag"). Plays a really tight range of pre hands, never limps, rarely calls. But plays well post flop, bluffing and folding as necessary. Viewed as a strong tight player by the table.

Villain 2. [$200] 18 y.o. Young LAG (I really mean loose and aggressive, thought he has some overcalling issues preflop, so not truly LAG) recreational player, sticky, creative and not afraid of high variance.

Villain 3 (elcebro). [$400] Is young white regular. Usually plays AG, not really loose because field in this place is stronger, compared to others and people don't allow him to run them over.

Actual stacksize +-$20 from the above numbers but this is non essencial.

Pre flop:
Villain 1 limps from UTG.
Hero has KK raises $12 from UTG+1.
Villain 2 calls $12 from SB.
Villain 3 calls $12 from BB.
Villain 1 calls $12 from UTG.

Flop:
764
[Pot: $48]
Villains check to Hero.
Hero bets $36.
Villain 2 tank folds.
Villain 3 calls quickly $36.
Villain 1 folds.

Turn:
764J
[Pot: $120]
Villain 3 bets $50.
Hero Shoves $250ish.
Villain snap calls with 44.


Question is: how do you like my (Villains) line against truly TAG opponent in this hand?

I like you lines if you are hero,

I dislike your line if you are the villain.

It did work vs this villain but villain had to think hero was goofy enough to make such a donk bet with a weak hand or draw blockbetting---hence the shove. So Villains perception of hero isnt spot on here.

I would expect any villain who knows the hero as a tuff-tricky-winner etc. would call turn only. IOW, it seems very transparent unless V percetion of us is totally wacked.

I personally think 2b/f to like 110 is better than just shoving 250 over 50. If he 3b shoves, what do we beat really? Think its easier to find a fold and save 140. And if he just calls for some reason, we can check back river. What im trying to say is, i really dont think he calls a shove ott with worse. R/f is a better option imo, we get more thin value from any worse hands and always get shoved on by better.

Id just flat here sometimes too tho. Raising>>>flatting>>>>>>>>>shoving>>folding, imo.

@ AintNoLimit
C/c wet flop, block bet turn is transparent monster? Can you please elaborate?
@ alew22
You can't really 2b/fold here. Pot will be $340 with stack $140.