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Old 02-08-2012, 05:17 AM   #1
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PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

This PAHWM is specific, as it will play not from my POV, but from my opponents view. There is a reason for this, that I will explain later.

Reads:
The table is just getting started, probably 3rd orbit or so. The play is 7 handed.

Villain 1. [$200] 40 y.o. white collar recreational player, LP pre, sometimes fast with draws post, overvalues made hands, has trouble finding fold button. Is well rolled for $1/2, could play $5/10 but doesn't want the stress.

Hero. [$300] 20ish y.o. Online MTT Pro. Plays TAG (I mean really tight and aggressive, not "tag"). Plays a really tight range of pre hands, never limps, rarely calls. But plays well post flop, bluffing and folding as necessary. Viewed as a strong tight player by the table.

Villain 2. [$200] 18 y.o. Young LAG (I really mean loose and aggressive, thought he has some overcalling issues preflop, so not truly LAG) recreational player, sticky, creative and not afraid of high variance.

Villain 3 (elcebro). [$400] Is young white regular. Usually plays AG, not really loose because field in this place is stronger, compared to others and people don't allow him to run them over.

Actual stacksize +-$20 from the above numbers but this is non essencial.

Pre flop:
Villain 1 limps from UTG.
Hero has KK raises $12 from UTG+1.
Villain 2 calls $12 from SB.
Villain 3 calls $12 from BB.
Villain 1 calls $12 from UTG.

Flop:
764

[Pot: $48]
Villains check to Hero.
Hero ..?
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:39 AM   #2
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Bet 40
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:43 AM   #3
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

LolPony always there
Why bet this big?
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:46 AM   #4
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Super wet board.
I bet 40 here just because If I bet anything less hearts and 5x is calling.
At the same time I'm announcing - if you raise you better have the nuts because you aren't going to have much fold equity(so don't raise your combo draws)! haha
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:42 AM   #5
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Alright, someone tell me if this is a leak I have.
4 players to the flop, on a horribly wet board, there was a pf raise, but not what i'd consider a huge one.
I check here and see a free turn. I really don't think a bet is folding out much, and i'd rather not throw another 40 in the pot when i'm going to hate half the turn cards. Keep the pot small while i have to dodge two cards to come, and thats assuming i'm ahead now. I'll make a decent bet on the turn, once i've dodged a dangerous card, or i'll give up on the hand.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:46 AM   #6
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillydilly View Post
Alright, someone tell me if this is a leak I have.
4 players to the flop, on a horribly wet board, there was a pf raise, but not what i'd consider a huge one.
I check here and see a free turn. I really don't think a bet is folding out much, and i'd rather not throw another 40 in the pot when i'm going to hate half the turn cards. Keep the pot small while i have to dodge two cards to come, and thats assuming i'm ahead now. I'll make a decent bet on the turn, once i've dodged a dangerous card, or i'll give up on the hand.
Interesting concept. But What happens when turn is 2 and Villain leads for like 50 because they think their A7 is good? Or they lead with XX because no one has shown any interest.
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:09 AM   #7
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LolPony View Post
Interesting concept. But What happens when turn is 2 and Villain leads for like 50 because they think their A7 is good? Or they lead with XX because no one has shown any interest.
Hard one to answer, a lot of it depends on where the bet comes from, our read of the villain, if anyone else called etc.

if SB leads for $50, and we have 2 callers is one thing.
if we have check check bet $50, thats another
if its SB lead for $50, fold fold, yet another.

I'd probably like to get a raise in, but there are a lot of variables here
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:34 AM   #8
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elcebro View Post
This PAHWM is specific, as it will play not from my POV, but from my opponents view. There is a reason for this, that I will explain later.

Reads:
The table is just getting started, probably 3rd orbit or so. The play is 7 handed.

Villain 1. [$200] 40 y.o. white collar recreational player, LP pre, sometimes fast with draws post, overvalues made hands, has trouble finding fold button. Is well rolled for $1/2, could play $5/10 but doesn't want the stress.

Hero. [$300] 20ish y.o. Online MTT Pro. Plays TAG (I mean really tight and aggressive, not "tag"). Plays a really tight range of pre hands, never limps, rarely calls. But plays well post flop, bluffing and folding as necessary. Viewed as a strong tight player by the table.

Villain 2. [$200] 18 y.o. Young LAG (I really mean loose and aggressive, thought he has some overcalling issues preflop, so not truly LAG) recreational player, sticky, creative and not afraid of high variance.

Villain 3 (elcebro). [$400] Is young white regular. Usually plays AG, not really loose because field in this place is stronger, compared to others and people don't allow him to run them over.

Actual stacksize +-$20 from the above numbers but this is non essencial.

Pre flop:
Villain 1 limps from UTG.
Hero has KK raises $12 from UTG+1.
Villain 2 calls $12 from SB.
Villain 3 calls $12 from BB.
Villain 1 calls $12 from UTG.

Flop:
764

[Pot: $48]
Villains check to Hero.
Hero ..?
*Grunch*

Is 12 a standard raise?

Flop is wet, and smacks multi-way hands pretty hard. However, we are usually ahead. Charge the draws.

Bet $36.
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:42 AM   #9
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Table is only starting, but so far $12 is on the big side of the standard raise, but not out of line.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:56 AM   #10
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Bet $35. barring a live read or a ton of action, get it in vs. a c/r from any one of the villains.

Why are you playing at such a relatively tough 1/2 table?
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:59 AM   #11
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

*Grunch*

Bet $30 to narrow the field. Anyone with a hand is most likely on a draw, so charge.
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:12 AM   #12
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fold4once View Post
*Grunch*

Bet $30 to narrow the field. Anyone with a hand is most likely on a draw, so charge.
Which is why I am much closer to psb on this one. $40 is my min. $45 is about right. In these games, the players are chasing a lot of draws. The wetter the board, the bigger my betting because I get paid. Why bet $30 when $45 gets called "almost" as frequently. Plus, the $30 tends to start the avalanche of callers behind. Whereas $45 is more likely to get us HU. I'm not super happy when things fold around, but I get a caller here quite often with a large bet. There's also a portion of the population that puts me on AKhh here and calls with a 7 or TTish because "you would never bet this big if you actually had it." Haha....wrong again.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #13
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654 View Post
Which is why I am much closer to psb on this one. $40 is my min. $45 is about right. In these games, the players are chasing a lot of draws. The wetter the board, the bigger my betting because I get paid. Why bet $30 when $45 gets called "almost" as frequently. Plus, the $30 tends to start the avalanche of callers behind. Whereas $45 is more likely to get us HU. I'm not super happy when things fold around, but I get a caller here quite often with a large bet. There's also a portion of the population that puts me on AKhh here and calls with a 7 or TTish because "you would never bet this big if you actually had it." Haha....wrong again.
I agree with this. I said $36, but that is really my minimum bet. I'm ok with anything up to a pot size bet. That said, I still only have a one pair hand and I want to be careful about bloating this pot. We do have position, though, so we can check behind on a bad turn card for pot control, if necessary.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:51 AM   #14
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

A PSB is about right - will charge any flush draws and any OESD like 98s. 5x hands seems unlikely and probably wouldn't continue on with the hand with the flush draw out there, *unless* they had a hand like Ah5h, in which case we hate almost half the deck.

Bet now and try to thin the herd while we're probably still ahead. It will help narrow villains' range and we'll have a better idea of where we stand on the turn. Plus, I would normally expect it to get checked around to Hero on the turn as well, in which case you could decide to just take the free card and try to get to showdown cheaply. I'm not going broke with one pair, but just checking the flop seems like a mistake to me since I have to think we're still ahead.
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Old 02-08-2012, 12:02 PM   #15
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Re: PAHWM: KK IP MW wet flop.

*In Before Locked.lol*
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