I'm talking about how you have to three barrel a lot if you bet here let alone two barrel.

10 grams of kush says OP bets flop gets at least one caller, picks up some equity on the turn, barrels, then gets to the river with A high or a rivered pair of aces with no idea what to do.

You are rarely cbetting and taking it down on the flop and imo you are not often barreling the turn and taking it down either but thats just me.

everything I take I have a prescription for god bless san francisco.

The description of BTN is "somewhat station." Being a station is exactly the way to exploit us should we barrel. The fact that he's in position will make this even easier for him.

The description of the BB is "raises or folds." This means he's unlikely to be flatting pf with any Kx or Ax that doesn't connect with this board. He's also likely to c/r his draws which exploits a plan to get thin value against draws by forcing us to fold.

So it seems to me that cbetting and barreling is exactly the opposite of exploiting their tendencies, it is playing into their hands.

Well, my ranging is based on "typical" LLSNL 2/5nl villains. Action was limped to us so we can take out AJ, AQ, AK, JJ-AA out of their range. So, that leaves us with set mining, 22-TT (JJ+ would likely raise pre) or SCs and SGs (suited gapers) probably 76s-KQs, 97s-KJs and suited/unsuited Broadways

If you look at this range twice (because we have two villains) then you see that T9, JT, QT, QJ, KQ, KJ, Q9, KT is square in the middle of this is it not?

Then add in the fact there is a FD on the board and villains will almost always call you down lighter when there is a draw because they will put you on the draw... And in our case, being hero called down by J9 sucks for us.

The reason I'm spending alot of time on this situation is that this is a very CLEAR check on flop. If we take a cbetting line then we have to fire multiple barrels and we are doing so into a pot where we have very little FE and in which Villains will be highly incentivized to hero call us. This is just not a good situation to be in.

If you don't see it, then I suspect you have a monstrous cbetting leak and you don't recognize situations in which you shouldn't cbet.

Or put another way. Could you please describe for us situations in which cbetting is not profitable?

KUD you're back!

never stops me.... :P

I'm playing right now so I don't have time to address this. Let's just say that this is not a CLEAR c/f like you advocate AND if you're not raising with A5s in LP in ANY game vs. ANY players you are losing massive value (which I believe was stated before.)

This whole 'one and done' attitude to c-betting when you're the aggressor has got to stop. The range you described above is fine but it also has a ton of hands that fold the flop and another ton that fold the turn unimproved. To say it's a clear c/f is so narrow minded. If you have a BR then barreling is standard here.

I don't mind opening the pot late with a hand that has nut potential in an attempt to steal the blinds, but I think that I would probably side with those folks commenting that they would open smaller (I would probably just go 3BB, maybe 4BB).

On the flop, I think that it's hard to c-bet and get both of our opponents to fold a lot of the time. It's true we could be looking at hands like 66-99, ATo, or 7h8h, but I think that a lot of that range includes OESDs, FDs, and made pair hands. I think I'd prefer to check here (though I check the flop more frequently than most would probably suggest), but I would be looking for opportunities to take down the pot on the turn.

If a 2,3,4,5,6,7,A or diamond falls, then I'm definitely going to make a bet (if checked to) on the turn and perhaps even if an off-suit 8 or 9 falls. If pokerhoodie kid bets the turn and its any of those cards I may sometimes even raise and try to take it down, because unlike the stationy button, I think he'll lay down Jx and even some Qx hands. If he's observant he may even peg us for a flopped set (25 pfr for QQ in past) and get him to fold big Q hands.

The problem is that villains in the hand are not fit or folders. You have a villain that has position on you that will definitely call 3 streets with Qx and possibly Jx, and the other villain sounds like a wanna be tv pro so he's gonna be check/raising all of his draws because that's what the pros on tv do. If we were up against 2 passive fit or folders then yeah firing multiple barrels is probably the most +EV but this situation just isn't the case.

If you can prove through ranges and math that c-betting and firing multiple barrels is +EV then me and I'm sure a lot of other posters would like to see it.

OP has little to no reads on these villains yet everyone here does?

I'm interested to see which direction this hand takes.

I think we can all agree that I'm always open raising this from HJ- I agree my sizing may be off but, especially given my £25 raise with QQ earlier, this can't be too much of an error- if so, I'm erring on the bigger size rather than smaller anyway.

Good discussion about cbet vs check.
I'm in KneedUrDough's camp:

1. sure, this flop hits the average calling range pretty hard, but it hits mine, too.
2. what flop doesn't give give LP station (if that's what V1 is) a reason to call?
3. BB is likely to be more than reasonably wide
4. I have an image, too-

I've actually hit the board (it's hard to make a pair)- that should give me license to get to the Turn.
I'm going to keep the lead and see what happens on the Turn.


----------------------

Hero (HJ) (£670)
Old, Calm Guy (Co) (~£1650)
Villain 1 (Btn) (~£650)
overweight white guy, mid-30s, clearly plays often, somewhat station but raises good hands pre- a bit bigger than you’d expect.20-s female (SB) (~£380)
Villain 2 (BB) (~£550)
20-25 yrs wannabe pokerkid- poker-branded hoody, headphones etc. Raises or folds, from what I can see- looks either very shy or very nervous.

For the first time, it folds to me so I open A5 to £25.

Co folds
V1 calls
SB folds
V2 calls

Pot £77
Flop: QJ5

V2 (SB): checks
Hero: bets £55
V1: calls
V2: folds

Pot: £187
Flop + Turn: QJ5 A

Hero: ?

If I bet the flop, I am not slowing down on this turn. Hero bets 110/folding to a raise


we still extract value from weaker hands and only get raised by better.

If we check we lose a lot of value OTT

$125


Flop is still a check though and it's not close. We can't cbet unless we intend to barrel most turns which is problematic because we don't have relevant reads to barrel these players. In fact I think barreling is spew because most of the hands that your typical 2/5 player calls on the flop aren't folding the turn. I'm all for being aggressive and barreling in 3way pots because our perceived ranges are generally stronger however this isn't a board I'm going to attack vs unknowns.

If we cbet A5dd here what aren't we cbetting?

Does our oversize pre-flop change our c-betting this board at all though? Are we more or less inclined?

It's only an oversize of $5... not much reason to compound one mistake with another imo

Irrelevant for me because I'm not going to make assumptions about how unknown players in an unknown game will adjust their ranges and lines based on how they perceive my bet sizing.

This is just not a good board to cbet with our hand.

Turn is like the definition of a bet/fold. These 3 high cards smack our perceived range hard and villain sounds like your typical passive recreational player so I don't expect hero to be bluffed on the turn. Hands that could possibly raise the turn for value that are worse are nut flush draws that now pick up top pair, but most of the time even that won't happen. So bet for value until villain tells us we are beat, I like a healthy bet of $140 with extra potential draws coming in on the turn.