was it suited, maybe he would have folded pre to a raise - maybe we will never know. not much more you could have done though.

Offsuit Q10, so most likely he dumps it if i 3 ball pre yeah FWIW.

Sorry to say this after results, but this was my thinking after reading the turn, is that his turn value betting range seems pretty heavily advantaged over us. He has all QT, all sets (24combos). K9 often checks flop, AK as well on this texture, TT too. AA mix of bets and checks on the turn. QQ almost always check, and obviously Jx. KQ/KT blocked and often checks turn, rarely calls a jam. But he can be pretty airy too.

And not that this necessarily matters at 1/3 but your range is heavily weighted to medium SDV, 99 should be your only set, QTs should be a mix of flats and 3bs pf and QTo should probably be a 3b or fold. While you have many Jx and some 9xcc, TT, and some diamonds, some with a K. Seems like a good reason to include KJs in your call down range.

This is mostly devil's advocate but I think turn is closer than this thread says.

Its kind of hard to take this all that serious when you post it after results, thats just the way it is. Your post is biased even though you might not think so yourself.

But even if i will try to take it serious, i cant see how turn is close with these stacksizes. We are talking about a villain who is raising 80-90 percent of his hands dealt on the cutoff/button (ive seen him showdown 9-10 off, 6-4 suited and A3 off+ more garbage after he isoraised pre), and who C-bets almost 100 percent. He is in there with all sorts of hands, and he also kind of have to barrell this K turn pretty often because:


1) Due to his extremely wide prefloprange he is sitting there empty or on a draw a healty percentage of the time, wich he is not the player type to just give up if he is empty/or on a draw, and

2) K is a scarecard which hits his range as preflop aggressor better than mine, and overcard to the J for flopped top pair is a great card for him to barrell- not to forget it creates another flushdraw.

Actually i almost started laughing for myself at the table when he tabled his hand- like how good can you possibly run, being able to show up with the stones there when i have top two on a soaping wet board and he is raising close to any two pre on the button.

LOL. I doubt it. So many people love this hand. I think results would have been the same.

I 3bet to $260 (all in for me) vs. a player who had made it $50 from UTG the other night with one player calling in between us, and he called w/ KJo. (Yes, he beat my AJs!)

Sure he may gamble in position i dont know for sure either way, but it doesent really matter either- its result oriented thinking to get hung up on the thoughtprocess if result would have changed IF i went with another line.

There are times we just always get stacked. This is probably one of them. Trying to figure out how you could have avoided it is just going to lead to bad habits of soul reading Vs that will ultimately lose us the moneys

This pretty much sums up the hand. Well played even though you lost.

Petrucci [& anyone else wondering], My DISCLAIMER: I am not winning 10BBs+ over the last 2500hrs, so I am not a Crusher.[/QUOTE]

It's because I have often answered in a way that lead the reader to believe that I thought I was an authority on the subject & my disclaimer has eliminated any exchange by those who thought I was posting as some kinda' pompous ass ever since.

Would be nice if Squid Face rattled off some reasons for 3!. He's a great guy & fun to read on the chat thread, but sometimes.........well sometimes, his strategy post answers can be annoying. My man grinds out 10BBs+ playing 2/5NL over the last 2500 hrs! Please - A little help brother!

I'm not convinced this plan has been given enough thought.

If we continue, we'll be OOP to the most competent player at the table. Any "small" pots that are won on the flop/turn will still likely be raped by the maximum rake. Yeah, we don't have to win every flop to make this profitable, but then again we're still going to have to win our fair share (especially if we get stacked a decent amount of the time too). Yeah, his range is a mile wide. But are we just hoping for those rare flops where we can flop a draw to blow him off his hand/air, or hit a 2 outer in the times we're dominating him / hit the best hand otherwise? I mean, this guy doesn't seem completely clueless, right? But, having said that, where do we draw the line; we do have KJs after all (it's not complete junk by any means).

The overriding question for me, and for poker in general, becomes: are we really *that* much better than this guy (sounds like the most competent player at the table, no?), OOP to boot, with a relatively speculative (although *perhaps* on the strong side of things) and some of the time (depending on our preflop action) without initiative, especially when taking rake into account?

GIknowwheremymoneycomesfrom,andIdon'tthinkit'sfrom thisguyG

As a general standpoint i think the points youre making could be a bigger debate with similar spots wich could potenially be very interesting.

However, i have to say that folding seems absurd to me in this particular hand, taking into account the pretty detailed reads i have builded up on this guy. Yes, he seems to be the most competent player besides myself by a landslide. Yes, we are OOP and yes its not a dream scenario by any means. And no, i am not really actively seeking to get into as many pots with him as possible- that would seem counterproductive and not very wise of a choice.

Those things being said- when the natural opportunity presents itself like i felt it did in this hand, i believe we have to go with our reads,our ranging- and make the best we can of this spot. We are up against a guy who we know is routinely raising garbage, and is routinely blasting off barrells postflop with that extremely wide range. Those two factors alone is enough for me to rule out folding pre, and getting coolered by him miraclously showing up with the nutz doesent change that for me.

Personally i felt that pre is very very close and could go either way though, and its not very often i feel like both flatting and 3 betting has such strong arguments to support them. As mentioned, still after the debate ITT and i have been sitting with this hand for more than 2 weeks i am not completely sure what is most +EV against this described villain with these stacksizes.

Well the thing to take from this hand is:

1) Pre is a 3bet vs a loose range. You pretty much have a monster so gotta make money. Its not like ppl are gonna fire off on all flops. Good players are selectively aggressive. Might have ended the same way but you cant just let him control the action. 3bet FOR VALUE pre

2) we are basically too short to make flatting better than folding the turn but had you been deeper where flat>raise, you need to c/f river UI. There is absolutely zero hands he can bet for value on the river that you beat. You are chopping at best. Villain should NEVER be bluffing this runout and we hold the only legit 2p combo. All hands we beat check back and all hands thst beat us bet. He could have 2 clubs to bluff river with but that happens so infrequently you can ignore the possibility

I kind of feel like we waste a good hand that flops well a healthy percentage of the time by 3 betting him. If we want to take advantage of his out of line wide isoraising range by widening our own 3 bet range i totally get behind that adjustment, but we dont need a hand as good as KJ suited to try and punish him for that. 3 betting hands such as K10 off,A8 suited or A10 off, wich still are miles ahead of his opening range (but flops worse and arent as playable so could need the added fold equity) seems to me like better candidates for that job. Often we would just take down the 15 pre,a job we in theory can get done with any two cards.

Like from my point of view we should also create a decent flattingrange against this guy in order to try an exploit his aggro tendencies, even OOP when we have good hand candidates- and this hand to me seems to fall into this category quite naturally.

If you three bet pre and are called, how prepared are you to continue unimproved? You can probably expect to put at least another $75 on the flop one way or another.

If i choose to 3 bet i am prepared to fire the flop a very healthy percentage of the time. Cause if i am not, its my opinion that 3 bet pre is the inferior option compared to flatting. Then youre just ballooning up the pot for no reason if i am gonna play my range totally faceup postflop in terms of check when i whiff and bet when i hit. That would make flatting for the button with his whole range too much of a +EV play, cause he can take the pot away from me with a bet in position after i check on so so many boards.

Its kind of the same thing i see from alot of players routinely 3 betting AK cause they have seen tourney guys play that hand fast on tv, but they pretty much never C-bet unless they hit top pair or better.

I can see that. Most of he game is picking up pots with aggression. If we make the pot bigger pre-flop we have to be willing to get stacks in on the flop perhaps as weak as two overs and a backdoor draw or he just steals bigger pots from us.

I don't think we need to be betting 75/90 if we 3! pre (assuming we 3x his $15 to $45). We should be sizing flops smaller, especially on drier boards. This allows us to barrel turns at a more effective sizing which leverages our bet for river shoves.

Agree on this, plus i think we can be looking to be unbalanced regarding our C-betting strategy against him- and exploit his eagerness to use aggression by checking to him when we hit good, and fire to gain fold equity when whe whiff or flop weak equity like a gutshot.

Even players i have lots of lots of hours with struggle to catch up on patterns like this, unknowns will have no chance of knowing what were doing.

Ok so no offense but this is the wrong way to think about.

Pre is only 2/7ths of the information so we cant really predict what flops we are going to get. Plans shouldnt really start until the turn. After the flop we have 5/7ths of the information. So we dont have enough info to plan flops.

But we need to make money on the info we have available.

So lets say he is raising 50% of hands otb.

That range will look something like Q8s+, 44+, some suited gappers 79s+, and all aces.

But when we 3bet he has to fold a lot of aces pre and even if he calls with some suited combos like A6s, he will only flop enough eq to continue 25% of the time

So its a massive overlay if he folds all his bad aces pre and a lot of them otf

This is something like a 57% pf edge so its rather large for poker

We can keep somw hands in our flatting range like small.pairs but this is a fairly juicy spot pre because he folds better enough (lots of Ax hands) and calls more often with worse (QT for example)

When we 3b we actually go to the flop with a better hand more often than when we call

Yeah reading all the comments: i think its a bad idea to think about what you are gonna do on xxx flop, but when you 3b you can prob bet a TON of flops and some turns. Your hand is that good in this spot

Would bet 100% of ace high flops for example

Ok so no offense but this is the wrong way to think about.

Pre is only 2/7ths of the information so we cant really predict what flops we are going to get. Plans shouldnt really start until the turn. After the flop we have 5/7ths of the information. So we dont have enough info to plan flops.

But we need to make money on the info we have available.

So lets say he is raising 50% of hands otb.

That range will look something like Q8s+, 44+, some suited gappers 79s+, and all aces.

But when we 3bet he has to fold a lot of aces pre and even if he calls with some suited combos like A6s, he will only flop enough eq to continue 25% of the time

So its a massive overlay if he folds all his bad aces pre and a lot of them otf

This is something like a 57% pf edge so its rather large for poker

I was thinking if we went to $50, as suggested for this hand, we would end up with around a $100 pot. I would size my C-bets from 50% to 100% pot depending on texture and our holding. I strongly suspect that he bets 2/3-3/4 pot if we check regardless of his cards. I'm not to worried about how to play the hand when we hit the flop or have a premium holdling. Our strategy when we don't connect well is what interests me. If we raise to $45 I think he calls wide enough we can commit with TPGK. (SPR<4) It's the plan when we have just two overs, or with a Q and 2 babies with a heart that interests me.
If we are going to commit 15% of our stack we should have a plan.

Ok so we gots us a V who be barreling light as PFR, awlrighhhhtt, let's 3bet that sucka w KJs oop and punish that clown. K.

Call the raise. Call the flop. Check-Get in top2 while the getting in is good 100bb deep is the nuts line. No need to overadjust - the players that I see doing this (esp deeper) get mauled in spots like this narrowing such a V and trying to be a tough guy post - because guess what, now he can't barrel lighter. Oh I see how that works.

Punish him with a value heavy 3b range OOP as you normally would and flat more often w strong ranges IP...catch barrels...win cash.

Totally see where youre coming from, thats also one of the main reasons i flatted pre- villains main weakness is his aggro tendencies, and in order to take advantage of that he needs to be in charge of the hand with the iniative. Just so he feels compelled to be the new Tom Dwan and blast off.

But hey, i flatted the KJ suited and got stacked with top two so what do i really know

This is mostly devil's advocate but I think turn is closer than this thread says.

Why? Even if jchauvin made the post solely for the purpose to make himself sound brilliant, what difference does it make if it's spot on - especially since you flatted pre, allowing his whole range [45%? That's what I thought until I read what you wrote about him below] to see a flop?

I think jchauvin perceived your V [as did I] as being less aggro than he actually was.

I'm not saying flatting pre is wrong, as I agree with johnnybuz "Seems like we can exploit him better by flatting pre and x/c our pairs and x/r our draws and 3 straight/3 flush boards that seem to miss his range."
Along with many others who would have flatted.

I missed your advising us previously of an "extremely wide preflop range."
Only hands you mentioned in OP was T9o & 64s is in a 30% starting hand range. Take out T9o & 64s is in a 24% starting range OTB.
You did say "a very high frequency" but that is left up to interpretation. 85% over 3 hrs getting 25 hands an hour, is 75 hands/10 is 7.5x2 = 15 hands max of being in the CO/Button.

You also never mentioned how many limpers he was isoraising against with garbage like 75s, A3o etc. It had to be more than 2 quite often if he did it 15 times.

You could have raised to $45 pre - he WILL call. You could then fire Flop & HE will call, because you probably won't bet 120% of pot - and then he will turn the NUTZ.