The hand occurred a few days ago at an e-table in Madison, WI. I'm not sure what else they're called. Fortunately, it has a feature where you can look at the last hand on your personal screen. Since I usually can't remember the exact details of every card on the board, and don't carry a notepad with me (yet), I took a photo of the screen shot with my cell phone in order to post it here.

This is about half an hour into the session. Lately, I've been really trying to play more aggressive, pay attention to position, putting opponents on a range of hands, bluff in the right spots, value bet more, etc. Before this particular hand, I raised to $10 a couple times pre-flop and got called by a single opponent each time. Took down the first with a c-bet and the second with a c-bet of $15 and then a 2nd barrel of $25 on the turn.

I was dealt QQ in early position. I open raise to $10. I've been trying to keep all my raises a standard size no matter what cards I'm holding (assuming I have a hand worthy of a raise, depending on the variables), except if there's several limpers before my action, an initial raise, or a straddle with a caller, etc. I get called by an Asian guy in his 40's and a regular looking guy (looks like he plays a lot of golf) in his late 20's / early 30's.

The Asian guy ($200) can be tricky and I know from experience that his range is super wide. He'd call me with 22 or 34suited if he felt like it. He's usually aggressive when he has a great hand or occasionally when he thinks it's a great opportunity to bluff. Otherwise, he's fairly passive. The golfer's ($90) range is less wide. He's was on the button, so he could have any pair, decent suited connector, suited ace, or two high cards. He's about average, not overly passive nor aggressive, not too tight nor loose.

I have about $160 in front of me.

The flop is K 6 K

My usual continuation bet is $15. However, I decide to lead for $10 because I'd like to build the pot a little without bloating it. It's definitely a feeler bet that wants to get value from a decent non Kx hand like a medium pair, or AQ. I'm sure that either villain was capable of floating this flop.

Both call the $10. I was expecting one call, but not two. I'm still hopeful that neither has a King, but realize that my hand might be in serious trouble.

The turn is 8...


VS

bet 20 OTF

i would just c/f the turn

with 2 callers theres a >75% chance one has a flush or king

heads up it owuld be verylikely one has 77-JJ and it may be so right now as well but Kx and fds make up a big part of their range


but ya bet 20 OTF

This probably means you are not thinking enough about ranges during the hand.

I don't really like "feeler" bets. I think against bad players you are losing value in spots where it's +EV to value bet. I think against good players it's bad, because you put them in more raise/fold spots with middling hands, because you are typically not bluffing with "feeler" type bets.

As played, I'd check and see what happens on the turn. If I didn't have the Qd I might just bet for value, and keep myself from getting bluffed, but I don't really want to get blown off the best hand with a re-draw, if I bet and get raised.

By "feeler bet" I guess I was talking about bet/fold. If I got raised on the flop, then I've probably got to lay it down. However, since I got called, I re-evaluated my hand on the turn.

Why is this not a PAHWM... because I included the flop action in my original post? Regardless, I appreciate all the comments.

With remembering details, the flop could have been K 5 K. Does that really change my opponent's range that much? If my opponent had pocket 66's, then it's just as reasonable that he had 55's or 77's. Obviously, if an opponent had flipped over a set, then the low flop card would be fresh in my mind. Anyways, I am trying to pay closer attention to the exact board texture, ranges, etc. However, I'm not perfect. My memory plays tricks if it's been a few days since a hand occurred. Thanks for the advice.

I can see why a larger flop bet is good, but let's think about what kind of (re)action that would induce in our opponents based on the low, middle, and upper end of their ranges.

Anyways, because of the 3rd diamond on the turn, I was now drawing to the 2nd nut flush. That, along with a solid hand like pocket Queens was enough motivation for me to bet $15 on the turn. I assume there will be plenty of comments about the small/weak size of the turn bet. That's fine, but please post what a much larger bet would accomplish based on our opponent's possible hand range.

Both opponents called. I didn't really like that. Now, I felt pretty sure that one of them was slow-playing a King, and I would need another diamond or a Queen on the river to win... unless of course an opponent had called pre-flop with K-9 of spades or something and perhaps a large river bet could make him lay it down. More likely, though, without a or Q I would probably check/fold the river.

River was the 2...

VS

Here's the problem with feeler bets, it's not something unique to you. People know what they are. Good players know how to exploit them. Bad players lose less money because of them.

What's your bet trying to accomplish? You are trying to get called by a wider range. But, what you are telling competent opponents is that you don't like the two Ks on the board, or you are trying to price a draw. Both could induce raises, either as bluffs or for thin value. It can also get someone to flat Kx if they thinking you are b/f your feeler bets. Feeler bets into good opponents don't tell you a thing.

Against bad opponents, even if you do widen their range slightly, their range is already way to wide, and you are just missing value.

It isn't a PAHWM because the hand doesn't have a ton of substace to it. You would have been better suited just making a general HH or posting this in the low-stress strat thread.

Anyways, bet larger OTF

Prop C/F turn.

My line would be: $10 pre, $15 OTF, c/f OTT unless a super small bet or I pick something up that suggests I shouldn't fold, and I'd lead/fold $25 OTR.

As played, I'd probably lead/fold 1/3 pot OTR.

CLIFFNOTE: Raise more pre, there is no reason to worry about your preflop raise sizing being exploitable by level 1 villains

I vehemently and almost violently do not like this approach to LLSNL ESPECIALLY 1/2nl!!!

This is an old school poker technique for achieving deception and it just isn't optimal for today's LLSNL.

Villains at this level are rarely if ever going to exploit your raise sizing or match your raise sizing with your hand strength. And even if they do, they are for the most part so freaking loose passive or fit-n-fold that they still aren't going to exploit you.

Our raise sizing should be more a function of exploiting THEIR weaknesses vs trying to achieve deception.

Why raise $10 when our villains will call a $15, $20, even $25 raise?

If we raise $10 get 4 callers, pot is $50 and we probably have something like 40% equity vs a standard LLSNL calling range.

But if we raise $20 and get two callers, pot is $60 and we have like 66% equity instead of 40% equity. Not to mention the added benefit that a 3 way pot is a helluva lot easier to play than a 5 way pot...

Anyways, I beat this drum all the time on here, we can raise more preflop in LLSNL because our villains didn't drive 45 minutes to the casino to fold for three hours straight. They have their favorite hands, their lucky hands, or they flat out just don't know its incorrect to call raises with QTo bs hands OOP for 15% of their stack. Not to mention that villains at this level think NOTHING of playing for stacks with TPWK or in some cases mid pair becuase they will put the raiser on "AK" because apparently that is the only hand in the universe that we raise with preflop with and so they will snap call pot sized bets w T8 on a 8 4 2r board because "I put you on AK"

When we raise $10 we are preventing these players from making mistakes that they WANT to make.

that is my feedback for this hand. Raise more pre and don't worry about your raise sizing being "exploitable". Level 1 players aren't ever going to exploit you.

I really agree with dgi here. I'm constantly upping my raise sizes until I get the desired result. With fish, I'm raising my big pairs bigger than normal.

I constantly up my openings until I find a threshold. Friday night, I spent the last 2 hours opening 1/3 up to $20-$30 and still getting one or more calls most of the time. Some nights it's lower. I would NEVER walk into a room with a preset bet sizing.

I will also add that large PF raises with big pairs can be "deceptive" as a bonus. "I didn't think you'd raise so much with aces - figured you'd want action". "You raised so much I put you on tens. Looked like you didn't want to see a flop"...and other stupid **** you hear at 1/2...

PF I like the $10 raise. If it's gotten you heads up twice before (and generally seems to work for the table) go for it. A little more is fine if you think you can bring along a caller or two. As said, though, don't be afraid to vary your sizes a bit.

On the flop, I would make a $15-20 C-Bet. The feeler bet just invites other players in - if you are really strong you can maybe justify it, but even then there are probably better ways to play it. Normally I'd lean toward $20 on a flop like this, but again it depends on how the table is playing sometimes.

As played, the turn is a rough card for you, and means you are almost certainly behind one or both of them. I check with the intent of folding to most bets. If the bets are small enough that you feel you can hang around for a shot at the second-nut flush on the river you can call it, but keep in mind that you'll still be out of position and you have some reverse implied odds going against you. It would take a pretty small bet for me to stick around - maybe $10 or so. I'm not sure why you are betting here - your opponents are very unlikely to fold and you are almost certainly behind.

As played, the river is interesting. If I did my maths right you have about $100 in the pot and about $130 in your stack. Asian dude has you covered, and golfer has about $60 left. I think you need to bet/fold this one. Maybe a bet of $40 or so to get a crying call from a K or a lower . If you are raised you have to let it go. The only exception would be if golfer dude raises you - call the $20 and hope he's got a lower flush than you. He won't most of the time, but you are priced in at that point.

I appreciate the comments, everyone.

Food for thought, dgiharris. I suppose the calling/folding aspect of my opponents has more to do with their looseness, drive to the casino, and favorite/lucky hand than my pre-flop raise size. So, in general, your saying that the better my hand, the more I should raise? So if I was in middle position and it was folded to me with JT suited, an $8 raise might be more appropriate and $20 with KK?

As I've mentioned in previous threads, there's pretty much one table (two going simultaneously on Friday and Saturday night) of $1/$2 in my area. So, half the table are always regulars with some leaks or weak spots, but they aren't that bad. Since I used to limp in with stuff like TT, JJ, and AQ until a month ago, a few opponents (who were paying attention) might put me on a monster if I make a big raise, AA or KK and just fold. That's not terrible, but winning only the blinds isn't my goal, right? Am I over thinking it at $1/$2? What about at $2/$5?

Ok, back to the hand... if there's a street where I hate my play the most, it's here on the river. I'm not sure if I got too excited and reverse-spazzed or wanted to play it tricky or what. Definitely seems that I slipped back into my old style of being too scared to value bet with a non-nut hand. I suppose there might have been a tiny bit of value if an opponent had made a thin value bet or bluff, but I know from experience that such is rarely the case. Again, the river has literally caused me to lose a little sleep.

I checked. Both opponents checked behind. The video screen showed that they each had AK (without the A). WTF? I was surprised that both opponents had played their monsters so passively. They were probably expecting to pounce on the river but got scared by the 4th .

Really should have bet about $30 - $40 here. Wouldn't have folded to the short stacked golfer if he raised... not sure if it would be a fold if the Asian guy raised either, since he's sneaky and capable of a bluff on such a dangerous board.

So, now that the whole hand has been shown, should my flop and turn action be seen as less than optimum, in a general sense, but OK here... or is it just all bad, especially here?

It seems the more I know, the less I know. In other words, why is playing great poker so hard?


VS

Truer words have never been spoken. I, too, at one time, fell victim to "slowplaying" AA/KK/QQ - it only took one stacker to cure me of it. Rarely have I sat at a $1/$2 level game and not encountered fish that really had no idea what they were looking at. They weren't even at the level that they put you on A/K, they just played their own hands and might as well as turned their cards over.

You get one of those premium hands - have an idea in mind based upon the quantity/quality of donks at your table of your raise. I have my ideas of all the classes of hands based upon the level of play. It's either high, higher or highest depending on the players and my position.

DGI - excellent post sir.

-out...

What I am saying is that you should exploit the terribadness of your players.

You can raise big when you have big hands, you can raise small to juice the pot when you have baby pairs so that if you hit you can extract more value, you can limp SCs and not worry too much about being raised... Basically, I'm trying to get you to think about EXPLOITING their bad play.

For instance, I get 33 in 1/2nl UTG+1, eff stacks $200. If I were playing my normal 2/5nl game I would limp this hoping to set mine. But since my villains are so bad I can raise to juice the pot so that if I flop a set I can get some fat value and get stacks in. So, I raise to $7 and I don't have to worry about someone squeezing or 3-betting me because passive players love to be "trappy".

To be clear, this is a HORRIBLE raise but since 1/2nl is normally filled with trappy passive fishy players, I can get away with this at passive tables I don't have to worry about getting squeezed out. So I raise $7 and get 6 callers.

Flop(42) Q 8 3r.
I bet 30, two callers everyone else folds

Turn(132) 2
I shove all-in for $163, both villains call

River(621) Q
V1 has AQ, V2 has KK

Basically, think on how you can EXPLOIT their awful play