I'll give a tangible example later, but my general strategy question is how should we play decent made hands (but no where near nutted hands) OTF against Vs who are c-betting nearly 100% of the time.

I have generally c/c flop, check turn... but my problem with this line of play is that if V is generally checking back the turn when he is not in the top of his range, we are essentially giving V a look at all 5 community cards for the price of whatever he decides to c-bet the flop. Maybe this is just the predicament of playing OOP, but I'm wondering if more aggressive lines could be +EV in the hand itself or at least in the metagame.

Example:

Villain is a fairly competent LAG (but not complete aggro player) who c-bets flop 100% of the time (when flop has 1 or 2 opponents) when he is PFR. $1/$2. $300 effective stacks.

Pre: 1 limper, V raises $12 in CO. Hero calls in BB w/ 99, limper folds.

Flop ($25) T 6 4 rainbow. Hero checks, V bets $15...

My standard line is just to call, and then to check the turn.

Is there an argument for a c/r to $45 here? Or a c/c, then lead any turn card under T to something like $45? After all, against a LAG we would have to think we are ahead of a lot of his range if he is c-betting nearly 100% of the time.

It just feels like this standard line of c/c, then checking turn allows V to see all 5 cards and from a metagame perspective doesn't punish him for c-betting 100% of the time. Afterall, with our drawing hands we'd love to be able to see a turn card for free once in a while.

The downsides I see to these more aggressive options are that we are often folding out the hands we beat, and when V doesn't fold we are bloating the pot OOP with a mediocre hand.

I'm thinking that the more passive line is probably best and this is just one of the many perils of playing OOP, but wanted to hear thoughts on this.

Thoughts?

Really depends on what his turn cbet% is, which is kinda hard to know live. Sometimes I c/c overcards to see what he does if I really suspect a frequency exploit. In general though, I would reverse float with some marginal holdings. Giving up a hand like yours after one c/c is never that bad. If it turns out he barrels every time just let him put the money in every time you have it.

You have some good thoughts op

Yeah being oop sucks and if your lag is decent he will know this and he wont be getting involved very often oop vs any component players....
Your problem as you rightly suggest is that by raising mid-strength hands you can only really get called by better hands so why are we raising?

If we look at your 99 hand, it's not really going to be a three value streets strength hand anyway, so I think Checking the turn is fine, if he check behind you can pretty happily value bet the river and 2 streets vs a competent lag with 2nd pair is about right Imo....
This reverse float line vs this villan will be good to use with your mid strength hands as above as well as some of your junk, gut shots, bdfd, overcards, bottom pairs etc,
It's a line I use all the Time vs lag villans, and if you build a history it really puts them in some dumb spots.....just beware when they realise and they start firing the 2nd barell more often......

Just look at your whole range of hands you can have from the bb and then start putting hands in the right categories for c/c - c/r - c/f. Try and make sure these ranges are balanced and you'll be tough to play against. As long as you keep some to good hands to call down with in your range oop has to be smart and can't just barrel you with random stuff

How often are we getting to the flop oop in a raised pot as the Non-aggressor?

It should be almost never imo.

2 adjustments you can make off the top of my head:

1. Widen your 3-bet value range.
Preflop you have 9s against a LAG opening on the cutoff. You're way ahead of his opening range and can 3bet for value anywhere from 35 - 40: if he calls, you have the lead on the flop and are ahead of his calling range (you're only behind 10s and jacks and I think he's going to be 4-betting queens some percentage of the time). Now you have the lead going to the flop.

2. Check-raise weak-hands or air on flops that hit your calling range a lot better than his raising range. So if the board is something like 357, 489, j92 a check-raise with air should be profitable assuming he folds out two-overs, one-over, gut-shots, and middling/second pairs a significant portion of the time. If he's c-betting 100% of the time, he has top pair or better very, very rarely and you can blow him off his hands a significant amount of the time with ATC (that is until he catches on and adjusts. You have to have a feel for your image and the right frequency to do this at in-game yourself).

Being less willing to play hands OOP without initiative is a good place to start.

In your example hand, lets say villain has KJ. By simply calling preflop, you let him c-bet the flop at his price. Now since you have a hand you call the flop. Villain can now bet any A or Q turn which are scare cards to you. He can also x back K's or J's for deception and try to extract additional value on the river with a b/x/b line. He is completely in control here and you extract virtually no value while you are ahead and often fold the best hand.

Conversely, say you 3! 99 to $35-40 preflop and c-bet the flop for 30-50% PSB. You have captured your value preflop while denying your villain from realizing his equity (at least without paying for it). He is going to see turns and rivers far less often when you take control of the hand and you will rarely be folding the best hand unless he decides to bluff into the strength of an uncapped range.

I hate playing OOP. I hate playing OOP even more without initiative.

Appreciate the thoughts and it seems the best answer to my flop and turn dilemnas can actually be remedied best by better pre-flop strategy. Although I like to think of myself overall as a TAG, I think my 3! range is too tight and I need to open it up both for value and to include some light 3 bets.

In my example, my status quo would be to only 3! with TT+, AKo, AQs+... What range would you recommend 3!, both for value, and for light 3 bets?

Your ranges should always be dynamic and player dependent. Static 3! ranges regardless of table dynamics is a great way to torch hundreds of BB's.

You def can/should have a wider 3! range, but IP vs OOP matters a great deal. If LAG is the type to defend his raise pf and can be sticky/floaty postflop, I'm less likely to try to get into a blind vs LP battle. The EV in these spots is (for me anyway) marginal at best.

FWIW all this stuff about never being in these spots is just nonsense.

Yes in 25NL 6 max you should be 3 betting a ton of your oop continuing range bc initiative actually matters heads up and it's the better way to play your hand/range and realize equity.

Live it's literally impossible to 3b squeeze bc people are short stacked stations who open 5-6x as a standard. The multiway-ness of the field "protects" against 3 bets in a way and therefore you just play your hands value for what it is and flat a ton and check fold unimproved alot. It's ok bc when 16 people call preflop they give us direct odds and when 5 people stack off post flop with top pair they give us implied odds.

It does depend of course. In your example for instance I would often 3bet the 99. (Reconsidering now after seeing a very good player almost always flat these) I would sometimes donk it. Sometimes x/r it. Mostly x/c it. You chose a hand that is slightly harder to play and gave a good example why. I too think alot about villains seeing 5 cards and it sucks but letting one lag realize his equity in a heads up pot is item #346 on my list of concerns for live poker.

I would go as far as saying that you should never check raise his flop bet in the example you gave with 99. Your hand is just too weak. BUT we can really get him by check raising KT and better (if he's actually cont. betting 100%) and a ton of gutshots and backdoors. We still want to have hands to check call with and there couldn't be a clearer hand than 99.

Vs these kind of opponents, check calling flop and leading turn with all of our value continuing range seems to induce spew, you will thank me for the easy money later. But be careful as they will eventually stop getting into hands with you if you take creative lines, handread well and play out of flow. It makes them go haywire.

In theory the 99 hand is probably the borderline pair where its the top of your calling range with pairs. I still would like 3! TT+ for pairs when hero is BB vs CO open.

My call range BB vs CO-LAG open would be 55-99, A2-ATs, 65-QJs, J8s+, Q8s+, K5s-KJs, T8/T9s, and all offsuit broadways except AQ and AKo I 3!

3! range here should be TT+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs, and sprinkle A2o-A5o for bluffs as balance maybe add something weird like 98o if you really want to balance. But its 1/2 and against a LAG don't over balance.

A good lag is probably paying attention. Mix it up. With 99 the only line that is probably wrong pre-flop is folding. On favorable flops there should be a mix of donk bets, c-r and c-c.

This has so much value.

LAGs usually have huge egos and getting donked into triggers everyone but it seems like it triggers them even more. I haven't played in a while but I will always remember the (few) times I donked turn into an aggro when they have a weak range (they overbluff the flop) and they snap spew off 100bbs+ with really terrible equity.

It's not a line you can take everytime, i don't think this would be the spot but it's very good vs draw heavy range, assuming you can grab your balls and call/shove over them OTT. The bigger the ego the bigger the edge.