We also don't have to check to the aggressor. OP said "cbets are often overbets" or something to that effect. He didn't say the guy cbets multiway every time.

I agree with everything that is being said about being able to play against the LAG better if you call. That isn't the point though. Notice how everyone that supports calling focused solely on the LAG and said nothing else about the entire situation. Some serious tunnel vision going on here.

There is no way that outplaying this LAG outweighs the importance of not allowing two other players to get in this hand behind us.

Maybe I'm just not as confident as you guys are in my OOP 4way postflop play (I'm not being sarcastic).

I'm not a tight passive player. But I am a position nit vs a player who is going to bomb the flop/overbet 100% of the time. He will do all the pushing otf. After he gets done we can c/r for value. With this line we win the most money.

Despite playing against the other players. The lag will make they're lives miserable and we can put him in a bad spot. Instead of raising and letting him see how we react first.

Say the lag's pfr was from ep. I would 3bet all day. But the dynamics of the hand allows us to take alternate lines.

Another plan to go with 3-bet is that we are in a very good position to be the aggressor.

Two scenarios:

1. V1 and V3, one of them or both called. Now we are dealing with SPR at less than 1 for either villain.

We c-bet the flop, one of them or both of them shove, V2 is forced to act faced up.

2. Only V2 called. We now have the option to value bet or switch gear and play bluff catcher.

I think you're missing the point I was making. My point is that we do not get to see what other two villains will do, because they are acting behind us, and we are first to act after the aggressor.

Agreed. However, in my estimation most good+ LAGS do cbet in this spot. I mean, he has two fish and a decent player (who hasn't represented much strength) in the hand and he has the button. He would take a stab at it on flop most of the time. I would lead if flop is super wet, though

Well, it would be good if you can answer the post where I asked what hero should do in a list of scenarios.

I think you are grossly overlooking the presence of two other villains in this hand.

This is an example of hero over-adjusting to one player and exposing himself to others.

SeeU...sorry if I wasn't being clear. My point is I'm not particularly threatened by the presence of V1 and V3 for two reasons:

1) V1 and V3 have $120 and $200 behind. Against a cbet from the LAG and a call from hero, even if they shove we get to see what the LAG does before committing what would be an inconsequential amount of money relative to the size of the pot (in essence a less than PSB) So, their position is actually good because the LAG has to act before we do to a shove.

2) LP players don't shove without the nuts/near nuts

1. I am not worried much about V1 and V3's shove, and on most flop, that is almost what we want, provided that V2 folds.

However, these two villains are more likely to call the c-bet than to shove AI, then we're at a even worse situation with 4 players and bloated pot going to the turn.

2. I agree, hence the reason why I don't think the likelihood of V1 or V3 shoving is high, but if we 3-bet pre-flop, they will shove with any piece of the board because they're "committed".

Again, it's so hypothetical and it really depends on reads. However, I don't think the chances of V1 and V3 coming along to a 3bet pre are all that high, given that the LAG is still left to act

That's the whole reason this is a discussion. Villain(LAG) cbets strong/overbet. The hand will not go 4 way to the turn. Lag shows strength we c/r other villains fold, easy game.

So, my thought was an ideal situation would be to get one or both of the fish in the hand and (unbeknownst to them) basically committed, and the thinking LAG either out, or have the SPR be so low that our play against him could be pretty automatic.

My thought is that a smaller than average 3-bet would be good here. Somewhere between min and PSB, was my thought. Thoughts?

C/r flop is pretty bad.. the plan to flat pre is to get a cbet out of the LAG and one or both of the other villains to come along (or shove)

But you said there hasn't been any 3betting at this table. Are the fish aware of this? What would the LAG think about your 3bet sizing? can he level himself to think your squeezing here (even though it doesn't jive with your sizing)?

If you think the fish can limp/flat a 3bet then nh/wp...I don't think the chances of that happening are high enough to offset the heat you will face from the LAG ( who can call your 3bet) on most boards

Well, your oversimplification of the scenario on flop is no different than others saying that 3-bet will take down the pot pre-flop.

Assuming villain overbets the flop to $70, are we hoping that if we flat, V1 or V3 would shove, or are we CR'ing the flop and hope for...what?

V1 or V3 shoving seems to be the best scenario out of all, but what if both of them or one of them flat? Then what?

So the other option is to CR, but then that opens up a can of worm...making 3-bet pre so much more attractive.