1/2NL - Hero has ~250bb Villain just rebought 4 hands ago, has 100bb.

Villain:
~30yo Asian. Just busted out from the daily tournament.
Relevant history: Since he sat down, has been playing a lot of hands, and I've seen him make 2 raises OTT which have gotten folds.

About 4 hands ago I busted him with a turned 2pair.
My line was c/c, c/r, ai

I'm UTG with AQo.

I raise to $10, villain calls OTB.

Flop: AKT 2 hearts.
I c-bet $12, villain raises to $32.

Standard fold, right?

not for me, hes an aggro on the button who you just busted for good measure. Range can be a lot of semi bluffs and combos. I would call and attack the pot on bricks.

A hand I wasn’t thrilled with how I played, but had a river question (as played).

Villain (365) - Not a good player - saw him donk three streets on a Q33xy board and call a raise on the river with Q8 (other player had 73o) in a limped pot. Pretty sure there wasn’t an 8 on board, giving him just TPNK. This was the first time I had seem him raise pre-flop.

Hero (Covers) - Pretty new to the table, bought in for 300, stacked a guy with around 250 when V (not same Villain) opened for 6 from EP, hero (to his left) made it 25 with TT, V called. Flop 674 two spades - V leads 55, hero calls. Turn T, V bets 55 again, hero jams, V calls and says he had AK (???).

On to the hand in question:

V opens to 15 from EP, 2 callers, hero calls in SB with QT.

Flop (60): KJ9 rainbow.

Hero checks, villain bets 25, hero raises to 70. Villain calls.

Turn (200): 5 completing the rainbow.

Hero leads 120, villain calls.

River (440): K.

Hero jams for 160 effective, villain calls.



I know I’m not happy with how I played flop and turn, but my question is about the river.

The reason I jammed is because if I check, he’s jamming hands that beat me, and maybe AK and AA - and there are more combos of AK and AA (20) as 99, JJ, and KK (13). I don’t think he opens KJ from EP here, maybe KQ, but that’s a stretch.

I figured he’s calling with hands that beat me, but also AA, AK, and maybe KQ (if it made it that far). So, I think he’s calling with more that I beat than shoving himself with what I beat, but he is shoving with hands I beat - so I think it’s shove > c/c > c/f.

Thoughts on shoving river vs. c/c vs. c/f?

You have 160 left and theres 440 in the pot... c/f? Don't overthink the simple spots, this is as clear a jam as there can be.
You should be more worried about the flop IMO. c/raising a dry board like is a good way to lose business IMO

Against a hypothetical villain who would check back non-boats, only call with boats and would only jam boats, a check fold would be the right play. I never considered it in game, and think it's the worst play by far, but there is a time where it could be right.

I disagree that the board is dry though, there's no fd, sure, but there are so many pair + gutter hands and straight draws out there. It's not the wettest board, but it's also not the driest.

Its dry enough that a lot of kings can fold....

A villian would have to show me a boat before I'd ever fold the nut straight in this circumstance...

This villain is never folding a king, and probably never folding aces either. It's definitely a shove. Also, your combo count of flopped sets is wrong. KK (1) + JJ (3) + 99 (3) = 7

My defaults in EP:

Raise: TT+, AK/AQ (sometimes limp/reraising AA/KK/AK)
Limp: 99-, all other suited broadway hands (sometimes raising AJs/KQs)

Gsoyeah,loosepassive,justlikeallthegoodpokerbooksr ecommendG

You have a database for live hands? I find it hard to believe that 55- isn't profitable at a live low stakes table from EP, but I admittedly have zero actual evidence to back that up.

What is this "3better" and "squeezer" you talk of? We're talking a live low stakes game, right?

GhasafeelingweplayindifferentgamesG

That also means by combo count of AA and AK is wrong too (6 of AA and 8 of AK). Either way - If he's calling with all of those hands - a shove is definitely the right play.

A good player could probably fold a king here - but versus a guy who bet two streets with Q8 on a Q33xy board and called c/r on the river - I want to shovel the money in. Also, he opened UTG+1, I don't know how many kings he has - AK, KK, maybe KQ - he's probably not opening KJ from EP.

I also could have taken a b/b/b line, which would have gotten stacks in on the river (lead 50 flop, 100 turn, jam river for 200), or c/r'd flop and CRAI on the turn.

What do you think is the best line here? b/b/b?

Lol, good question. The answer is "I don't". I mixed up an online answer with a live answer. But I do attempt to play around 9% preflop from EP, even in live play (adjusting for table conditions).

b/b/b would be my default, yea

13--relevant players SB $400, MP, $250, Hero (button, $295)

SB is pretty loose passive. He likes to trap mostly with strong hands it seems. Have seen him do this 3 times with the nuts for moderate payouts.

MP is stuck--he feels unjustly. Seems to know basic concepts. He has been pushing people off lots of pots. Has been caught speeding a few times.

3 limps to me on button (trying to iso two poor players who folded), I make it $15 w/ KsQc--sb and mp call.

$43 after rake: 97Qhhx
SB bets $20, MP calls, I raise to $100

Is this the right flop play?

If you expect worse to call (worse queens, nines, hearts, gutshots) then yes.

If think they fold everything except hands that beat you, then no.

I'm assuming it's a raise/fold. (raising flop, but folding to 3bet).

Given your reads I think raising is correct. If the positions were reversed and it was the competent/aggro dude leading and the loose passive calling then I would just flat because he's gonna be b3bing a lot and you can't raise this unless you're ready to get it in on the flop, plus loose passive is more likely to have a monster when flatting someone else's donk than when donking himself.

The truth is that when passive donks $20, followed by a call from agro, I thought I could take pot down and was happy to do so on such a wet board. I assumed a call would only be from a draw or a hand that beats me.

I didn't want to play with tricky player when so many cards are dangerous and have me guessing on the turn and river.

I like the preflop raise to try to narrow the field / isolate with position.

I probably just call the flop and evaluate the action/board on the turn. I'm not looking to play for stacks here and a raise does that. I don't hate raise/fold, but if no one raises and only calls, then what? We're shipping the rest of our 100+bb stack in on a safe turn with the monster known as TP2K?

Admittedly, there will be lottsa sucky turn cards and probably sucky turn spots. But if a sucky turn card comes, and/or if SB does a largish bet and/or MP still sticks around, we can probably just get away from our hand for fairly cheap here. Not sure if "looking to get away from our hand for cheap" is the correct way to look at things, but that's kinda how I look at things a lot.

GmrpassiveG

1-3

Villains are all pretty mediocre passive. They seem to like to see a lot of flops and turns. Not total calling stations though, just average losing regs who like to keep their spew w/in budget. The hand was a few days ago and I don't remember details exactly, but I think my turn question will be the same regardless.

Approx $200 effective. 4 or 5 limps, hero knocks in BB w/ As4s

~$15 Flop--5s7cJs,
I check, UTG checks, MP bets $10, lp calls, bu folds, I call, utg folds.

$45 turn--(Ac) 5s7cJs

It is my feeling at the time that the ace is scary and I can take it down with a $30 bet much of the time (>50%). Do we want this? Or are we more interested in seeing that more money goes into the pot with our big draw oop?

I play preflop/flop the same.

Again, I take a fairly passive line on the turn and just check/evaluate. If we're behind, we actually don't have a very big draw (we only have a flush draw and might have high RIO on A/4). I'm check/calling any reasonable bet and most likely folding to a river bet UI. I don't want to bet and be raised cuz then we'll have to fold (and I hate being forced to fold a draw to the nuts). If the turn checks thru and we remain UI, we can decide whether we want to bet out on the river for value or check and bluffcatch.

GmrpassiveG

C/call flop appears very transparent, if we hit a spade and all.of the sudden are interested in our hand, it's hard to get paid. That + fe from weak top pair and middle pairs is why I begin the betting lead otf while stacking weaker flushes on a rare.occasion we do both hit

Sent from my SPH-D710 using 2+2 Forums

Interesting, yet different views. Anyone else have an opinion? These types of hands don't get much discussion on here but are situations we are in often when we find ourselves in limpy llnl games---bump

I prefer to lead in these situations, as well.

(1) You have decent fold equity on the flop,
(2) typical fish do not believe that you can have a flush when you bet again on the turn/river when the flush does come in, and
(3) if you don't take the lead, you can be sure that if the flush arrives, whoever was leading is going to check behind you

And when you hit the ace on the turn and bet it out, most llnsl players really have no idea what you have (if they are even thinking about what you have) so if the flush comes on the river, you are going to get called a lot. And if the flush does not come on the river, you still have decent sdv with your top pair.

And come on, really, c/call with NFD against weak ranges preflop? This is a fistpump bet as it proves:

1) You can lead into people without the "toppest pair!
2) You can win the pot unimproved, and weak made hands fold by the turn
3) We charge weaker draws like OESD, GS, fd, etc.
4) You can easily stack a smaller flush by not giving a free card, as fd is small part of your range
5) You can hit an ace and likely have the best hand
6) Making bets in small +ev spots can get the brain much more active again. C/calling makes my brain feel like mush and is boring.

This is a 6way pot. We have pretty much zero chance of taking down the pot with a flop donk.

Are we planning on barrelling away over two or three more streets UI to make weak hands fold?

Hitting an Ace on the turn might end up being the worst card we can hit (RIO / reverse domination issues if we get many flop callers).

Winning poker is typically boring poker.

Gdevilsadvocate,orperhapsjustthedevilhimselfG