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Old 01-19-2012, 11:34 AM   #1
Johnny 99
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Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Use this thread if you have a potentially standard question, a line check, some other nonsense that is not threadworthy.

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Please, when answering a post, quote the hand and give your answer.

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Hi, I was in a really deep 1/2 game last night and it was full of brilliant tags who were excellent hand readers. They were a bit bluffy though. I had c. $2,000--villains covered.

PF, utg raises to $24, MP2 makes it $48 to go, CO 4 bets for $350. I look down and see 72o. What should I do here?

Last edited by venice10; 01-19-2012 at 02:02 PM. Reason: We're old enough to be able to read a book without pictures
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:35 AM   #2
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Hi, I was in a really deep 1/2 game last night and it was full of brilliant tags who were excellent hand readers. They were a bit bluffy though. I had c. $2,000--villains covered.

PF, utg raises to $24, MP2 makes it $48 to go, CO 4 bets for $350. I look down and see 72o. What should I do here?
Hi Johnny 99. This is not a good spot to commit this many chips in with such a weak hand. I would fold here.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:45 AM   #3
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

2 limps by reasonable white 30somethings, a bit loose, but not out of control. 35yo whitey who has been getting hit in the face with the deck since he sat down 30 minutes ago (c. $800) makes it $16. (He has just gotten QQ and KK in last 2 hands and has been raising very frequently). I ($600) call in CO with QJ, button ($400 slightly scared money, white 34) calls, BB and 2 limpers come along.

6 players ($96) 29K

Checked to me, I check, Button bets $35, folded to PFR who makes it $75, I ...

It seems like a push only, but wanted to see if there is any merit in calling and seeing the turn.

Last edited by Johnny 99; 01-19-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:12 PM   #4
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny 99 View Post
2 limps by reasonable white 30somethings, a bit loose, but not out of control. 35yo whitey who has been getting hit in the face with the deck since he sat down 30 minutes ago (c. $800) makes it $16. (He has just gotten QQ and KK in last 2 hands and has been raising very frequently). I ($600) call in CO with QJ, button ($400 slightly scared money, white 34) calls, BB and 2 limpers come along.

6 players ($96) 29K

Checked to me, I check, Button bets $35, folded to PFR who makes it $75, I ...

It seems like a push only, but wanted to see if there is any merit in calling and seeing the turn.
This is closer to a call than a shove. Calling allows other V to jump in and it helps our equity out some...

Of course if you think they are going bat poo crazy with the Nut FD and you think you have FE... Then a big raise may be in order. Guessing this is 2/5?

Last edited by AcePlayerDeluxe; 01-19-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:31 PM   #5
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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This is closer to a call than a shove. Calling allows other V to jump in and it helps our equity out some...
I actually did call, but in hindsight thought it was weak (results oriented thinking FTW). I'm having a bit of trouble knowing when to play for deep stacks with draws. Button puts the extra $40 in pot. and on to turn.

Blank hits turn (6c?) and PFR leads for $130 in c. $319 pot. These seem like weak bets to me--like villain wants to protect his pair. With $459 in pot with $130 to call (gettin better than 3:1, it is an easy call with the gutshot and flush outs. This will also leave me with about $370 behind. Button looks like he is folding. What is a good turn play?

Game is 1/3
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:54 PM   #6
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Whats his range OTT? Whats his folding range now?
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:15 PM   #7
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I put him on AK, AA, Nut Flush draw. I discounted KK and other sets. I had been playing extremely tight since he joined table and had not gotten involved once. This makes my call look pretty strong on the flop and I did tank a bit. When he bet $130 (< 1/2 pot), I was thinking AK or nut flush draw. (It felt like a pair fwiw)

I guess the question here was will this guy fold AK or AA to an overbet raise? He hadn't made any big laydowns that I know of since his hand had been the boss everytime lots of chips went in.
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:27 PM   #8
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny 99 View Post
2 limps by reasonable white 30somethings, a bit loose, but not out of control. 35yo whitey who has been getting hit in the face with the deck since he sat down 30 minutes ago (c. $800) makes it $16. (He has just gotten QQ and KK in last 2 hands and has been raising very frequently). I ($600) call in CO with QJ, button ($400 slightly scared money, white 34) calls, BB and 2 limpers come along.

6 players ($96) 29K

Checked to me, I check, Button bets $35, folded to PFR who makes it $75, I ...

It seems like a push only, but wanted to see if there is any merit in calling and seeing the turn.
Are we not open to the idea of folding here? I like the idea of a flush draw as much as the next guy, but generally when I am in position and either a) I am the aggressor or b) the aggressor is letting me draw cheap. You have to call $75 against a pot of $200 -- good odds if you will get 2 cards for that price. However, you still have scared money behind you, who is likely to raise all-in with a super strong hand, or fold with anything less. Plus, you can expect V1 to bet strong on the turn. Not worth investing $75 w no chance of getting 2 cards, and some chance of not even getting one card for that price. Also, FE is low after a bet from a tight player and a raise. Did I mention we're stuck in the middle of them? I'd pick a better spot and fold.
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:45 PM   #9
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Are we not open to the idea of folding here? I like the idea of a flush draw as much as the next guy, but generally when I am in position and either a) I am the aggressor or b) the aggressor is letting me draw cheap. You have to call $75 against a pot of $200 -- good odds if you will get 2 cards for that price. However, you still have scared money behind you, who is likely to raise all-in with a super strong hand, or fold with anything less. Plus, you can expect V1 to bet strong on the turn. Not worth investing $75 w no chance of getting 2 cards, and some chance of not even getting one card for that price. Also, FE is low after a bet from a tight player and a raise. Did I mention we're stuck in the middle of them? I'd pick a better spot and fold.
I agree 100% about being in middle. Does the gutshot affect your view on this at all?
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:04 PM   #10
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I'll sticky this for a while to keep it up top.

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Old 01-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #11
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phulhouze View Post
Are we not open to the idea of folding here? I like the idea of a flush draw as much as the next guy, but generally when I am in position and either a) I am the aggressor or b) the aggressor is letting me draw cheap. You have to call $75 against a pot of $200 -- good odds if you will get 2 cards for that price. However, you still have scared money behind you, who is likely to raise all-in with a super strong hand, or fold with anything less. Plus, you can expect V1 to bet strong on the turn. Not worth investing $75 w no chance of getting 2 cards, and some chance of not even getting one card for that price. Also, FE is low after a bet from a tight player and a raise. Did I mention we're stuck in the middle of them? I'd pick a better spot and fold.
Folding is super nitty here..

OP - Our hand OTT hinges on FE IMO. If we can't get him to fold out the bottom of his range if we shove then its real close to a fold. However, if you think V can fold those hands then we can shove and probably feel good about it. I don't know the particulars of the math, hopefully someone else can come in and do dat.
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:49 PM   #12
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny 99 View Post
I actually did call, but in hindsight thought it was weak (results oriented thinking FTW). I'm having a bit of trouble knowing when to play for deep stacks with draws. Button puts the extra $40 in pot. and on to turn.

Blank hits turn (6c?) and PFR leads for $130 in c. $319 pot. These seem like weak bets to me--like villain wants to protect his pair. With $459 in pot with $130 to call (gettin better than 3:1, it is an easy call with the gutshot and flush outs. This will also leave me with about $370 behind. Button looks like he is folding. What is a good turn play?

Game is 1/3
Bet flop when checked to, raise flop with BTN likely on a weak holding and PF raiser likely just making a play at BTN since his line doesn't make sense, raise turn with PF raiser's line still not making sense with his sizing.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:28 PM   #13
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

I disagree with the norm. Its a clear fold aka trap draw. Everytime a spot comes up like this. Ask yourself are my outs clean? do I have a draw to the nuts?

If any one of those question's is a no. Then folding is the more aggressive play.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:31 PM   #14
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

2/5

7 handed, UTG limps. Seen him limp a few times in the last 3 orbits. I am fairly new to the table, been here for 20 minutes and action is going around fast due to SH play. SB looks weak and limps, Hero is in the BB with A7

Are you guys raising here? I do and expect to be ahead of UTG limping range.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:41 PM   #15
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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2/5

7 handed, UTG limps. Seen him limp a few times in the last 3 orbits. I am fairly new to the table, been here for 20 minutes and action is going around fast due to SH play. SB looks weak and limps, Hero is in the BB with A7

Are you guys raising here? I do and expect to be ahead of UTG limping range.
I'd probably 65/35 that... 65 check, 35 pump. Really just depends on how I view the OOP player.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:41 PM   #16
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Depends on effective stacks? I would just check your action.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:06 PM   #17
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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2/5

7 handed, UTG limps. Seen him limp a few times in the last 3 orbits. I am fairly new to the table, been here for 20 minutes and action is going around fast due to SH play. SB looks weak and limps, Hero is in the BB with A7

Are you guys raising here? I do and expect to be ahead of UTG limping range.
I hate being oop with this hand. A few limps in a few orbits in my game means likely to fold to a C Bet so raising looks OK. I usually check (perhaps wrongly).
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:12 PM   #18
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Depends on effective stacks? I would just check your action.
E stacks are 100bb
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:23 PM   #19
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

If he's raising top 5% hands and limping the next 25% of hands, you're a 53/47 favorite playing oop. Unless you think having position doesn't matter, you're not in a value situation.

I can see raising as a bluff if his limping range is wide and his calling/raising range is tight.
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:31 PM   #20
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Folding is super nitty here..

OP - Our hand OTT hinges on FE IMO. If we can't get him to fold out the bottom of his range if we shove then its real close to a fold. However, if you think V can fold those hands then we can shove and probably feel good about it. I don't know the particulars of the math, hopefully someone else can come in and do dat.
So folding is nitty because you don't know the math? To me that is how we spew. Like pokahblows mentioned, none of our outs are clean, so even though the gunshot gilts it slightly, its not enough. If he has a higher FD, all our outs are tainted, so we instead of 13 outs, we can estimate our chances of being best at showdown at around 30 percent. On top of that, we have reverse implieds that, while smaller than our implieds, are still enough to chip away at EV. Our best shot here is if he folds, which is very unlikely given the action. If you can't find a fold here, label the play whatever you want, but please sit at my table.
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:16 PM   #21
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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So folding is nitty because you don't know the math? To me that is how we spew. Like pokahblows mentioned, none of our outs are clean, so even though the gunshot gilts it slightly, its not enough. If he has a higher FD, all our outs are tainted, so we instead of 13 outs, we can estimate our chances of being best at showdown at around 30 percent. On top of that, we have reverse implieds that, while smaller than our implieds, are still enough to chip away at EV. Our best shot here is if he folds, which is very unlikely given the action. If you can't find a fold here, label the play whatever you want, but please sit at my table.
Ok your correct. We should fold this flop. I mean he totally has like AdXd every time. I just learned a poker lesson today... Never play the second nut draw because the nut draw is there 100% of the time.... Wow
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:17 PM   #22
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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Originally Posted by Phulhouze View Post
So folding is nitty because you don't know the math? To me that is how we spew. Like pokahblows mentioned, none of our outs are clean, so even though the gunshot gilts it slightly, its not enough. If he has a higher FD, all our outs are tainted, so we instead of 13 outs, we can estimate our chances of being best at showdown at around 30 percent. On top of that, we have reverse implieds that, while smaller than our implieds, are still enough to chip away at EV. Our best shot here is if he folds, which is very unlikely given the action. If you can't find a fold here, label the play whatever you want, but please sit at my table.
Ok your correct. We should fold this flop. I mean he totally has like AdXd every time. I learned a poker lesson today... Never play the second nut draw because the nut draw is there 100% of the time.... Wow
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:26 PM   #23
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool View Post
2/5

7 handed, UTG limps. Seen him limp a few times in the last 3 orbits. I am fairly new to the table, been here for 20 minutes and action is going around fast due to SH play. SB looks weak and limps, Hero is in the BB with A7

Are you guys raising here? I do and expect to be ahead of UTG limping range.
raising here is ****, check here 100% of the time

I'd raise KQ, AJ+, 99+
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:50 PM   #24
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

@ pay for my school

A7 isnt that great of a hand to raise with, against a unknown i would check. A7s plays pretty well postflop as well. If you have a edge postflop why not use it? 100bb isnt super deep to get too much in pre. If you raise, how much fold equity do you have?
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:10 PM   #25
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Re: Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

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I'd probably 65/35 that... 65 check, 35 pump. Really just depends on how I view the OOP player.
Meant to say the IP player. If he is folding to a big percentage of cbets then this is a raise all day. If he is going to give us fits then check and play post.
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