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Old 05-26-2012, 11:33 PM   #1
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(NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

Okay, so I'm in MP (eff stack $190) and pick up QQ. From the blinds it's folded to me and I raise to $7 - A standard raise at this table.

CO calls.

BTN 3bets to $27. - An older gentlemen who is currently on tilt from the previous hand, and it shows in his face. (He poorly bet his 2-pair and allowed someone to catch their flush).

I'm thinking normally coming from this guy he has AQo,AKo,AQs,AKs,JJ+ but in this situation I am widening his range due to his tilt-factor. This guy was PISSED.

I flat, CO folds.

Flop: T5Tr

Due to his current aggression, I chk. - He bets $35. - Here is where it gets weird.

I'm counting my chips in front of my cards (well behind the line; thinking of what to raise) and the dealer tells me that it's a call because my $35 is in front of my cards. - WTF? He calls the floor, and after the floor (who seems unsure of himself) decides its a call, I unhappily toss my chips in the pot. - Partly acting because I don't hate a call, and somewhat actually upset because I don't think it's the best move.

Turn: 2...good card.

Me?? - I'm thinking in this spot I have two options:

1) I can act upset at the floors decision, chk, hope he bets, and I jam.

or

2) Jam
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:38 PM   #2
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirinmycards View Post
Okay, so I'm in MP (eff stack $190) and pick up QQ. From the blinds it's folded to me and I raise to $7 - A standard raise at this table.

CO calls.

BTN 3bets to $27. - An older gentlemen who is currently on tilt from the previous hand, and it shows in his face. (He poorly bet his 2-pair and allowed someone to catch their flush).

I'm thinking normally coming from this guy he has AQo,AKo,AQs,AKs,JJ+ but in this situation I am widening his range due to his tilt-factor. This guy was PISSED.

I flat, CO folds.

Flop: T5Tr

Due to his current aggression, I chk. - He bets $35. - Here is where it gets weird.

I'm counting my chips in front of my cards (well behind the line; thinking of what to raise) and the dealer tells me that it's a call because my $35 is in front of my cards. - WTF? He calls the floor, and after the floor (who seems unsure of himself) decides its a call, I unhappily toss my chips in the pot. - Partly acting because I don't hate a call, and somewhat actually upset because I don't think it's the best move.

Turn: 2...good card.

Me?? - I'm thinking in this spot I have two options:

1) I can act upset at the floors decision, chk, hope he bets, and I jam.

or

2) Jam
jam sounds good...
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:04 AM   #3
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

Strawberry jam the turn? Checking is silly because by getting pissed at the floor (vocally) we are expressing that we have a big hand and are not happy with the ruling. Would rather just jam the turn myself and try and make it look like we are now the ones on tilt.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:17 AM   #4
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

#1 Learn the rules at your casino and learn how to authoritatively plead your case. When you plead your case speak calmly and with authority. Never get angry, just be cool, calm, and collected.

#2 Similarly, when you call/bet you need to do the EXACT SAME MOTION everytime. Don't get fancy, take your time, count out your chips in a clear definitive manner to the side and then make an obvious bet by clearly pushing your chips forward well into the pot...

#3 It helps to announce your intentions, by simply saying "raise" you avoid this problem.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:02 AM   #5
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

i prefer a check here. jamming prevents him from continuing his bluff or continuing with some lower PP. He would prob bet with air or some PP hand, and he will probably call if you jam with a PP hand, so jamming here stops us from getting value from bluffs
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:21 PM   #6
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

wtf why are we jamming here? this is such a clear spot to let villain hang himself. He will value bet worse, (any pair), and he will continue his bluffs.

Easy check/shove imo.

If we're going to bet the turn, it should be a tiny bet to induce spaz shoves from villain. Shoving allows him to play optimally (he folds all his bluffs, and possibly even folds hands like 44-66)
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:27 PM   #7
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

Villain just saw OP upset that he was unable to raise. Seems like even very bad villains will check behind on turn here. You should bet your hand.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:39 PM   #8
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

I know the standard raise might be to $7, but you should make it at least $11-$12 since people will still call your raise with weaker hands and you can get more value on later streets.

Why did you want to c/r OTF? This is the perfect time for you to c/c and call down on all turns and rivers. Your read was that this guy was super tilted, so there's no reason to let him off the hook by check/raising the flop and letting him fold out all of his bluffs.

As played, I really don't think you'll get any more value of the hand anyways since you basically screamed that you had a good hand, so I guess I'd bet some small amount just to protect against random overcards since he's probably not going to try double-barreling anything now that he knows we have something.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:47 PM   #9
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

Raise more pf and 4-bet pf.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:41 PM   #10
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

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Originally Posted by jmark View Post
Raise more pf and 4-bet pf.
If you know the BTN is just spewing and tilted and you can handle a little variance from time to time, even though you're OOP I think flatting the 3-bet is more profitable than 4-betting to keep all bluffs in the villain's range.
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:01 PM   #11
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

floor made the right ruling I think. i'd check turn. wawb mostly and try to get it in if he bets.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:50 AM   #12
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

Horrible ruling imo. What is the betting line for then?

I'd be okay with this on a table without a betting line. But that's what the damn line is for -- in front means bet, behind means no bet. No ambiguity whatsoever!
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:57 PM   #13
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

why are you flatting pre if you know the guy is tilting and he's already shown willingness to play his hand preflop
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:50 PM   #14
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

guy is tilting and jamming eliminates his opportunity to bluff. I'd only check shove if he bets the turn AND obviouosly commits himself.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:04 PM   #15
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Re: (NL200) Weird hand with QQ: Floor was called to make decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
#1 Learn the rules at your casino and learn how to authoritatively plead your case. When you plead your case speak calmly and with authority. Never get angry, just be cool, calm, and collected.

#2 Similarly, when you call/bet you need to do the EXACT SAME MOTION everytime. Don't get fancy, take your time, count out your chips in a clear definitive manner to the side and then make an obvious bet by clearly pushing your chips forward well into the pot...

#3 It helps to announce your intentions, by simply saying "raise" you avoid this problem.
I was about to move this to B&M, but it does ultimately belong here. Personally, the ruling is a bit odd. When there is a betting line, most dealers allow you to count out your chips behind the line and in front of your cards. Personally, I keep my cards as far away from the dealer as possible as long as I want them to be live. I want them to work if they get in their head they want to muck my cards without me throwing them in the middle of the table. To re-emphasize dgiharris' point, I'd ask specifically to the floor, "That means that whenever I see chips in front of a player's cards, that's a call and I can expect the dealer to enforce it?" Unless the house specifically has that rule, a decent floor can see that agreement is going to be a dog's breakfast and will start thinking about whether he really wants to enforce that rule.

That said, I'm not excited about the turn. You were WA/WB on the flop. The turn is a blank. Tilted players are never folding a better hand than you have. I check the turn. If he has AK, he has 6 outs. I'm happy to fade them. If he has KK, I'm not interested in betting. If he has 99, he's done with the hand and not betting anymore. You can only get value from JJ, at best.
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