This is how you buy a one way ticket to Bustville. Going on A $10k winning streak is NOT an indication that you are a longterm winner and proof you are beating the game.

Most fish itching to move up just don't truly understand the value of crushing the game and having a solid winrate you can bank on. Nor do they understand how the move up will impact their winrate.

Imagine if you are a UFC fighter. Just because you win 4 fights in a row doesn't mean you are ready for a title shot.

Anyways, you shouldn't jump from 2/5 to 5/10 until you've crushed 2/5 for at least 300 hrs. Notice I didn't say "play". I said "crush".

So, to answer your question, grind 2/5 for 300 hrs, build up a juicy $30k+ bank roll and then follow the transition plan I outlined earlier ITT.

100 bi bankroll is a professional guide line as they are often playing short or just against each other for long periods while waiting for fish and so it isn't excessive in that circumstance - esp at higher stakes. They bust their roll on the worst downswing imaginable and their livlihood is gone so it needs protecting like it's your kid.

dgiharris talks a lot of sense but not sure $100/hr is sustainable at 2/5. I ran like god on my last two US trips to Vegas and Miami with just two losing sessions in nineteen and more than doubled my trip bankroll each trip and was running @$64 per hour. What $/hr would be considered crushing 2/5? Equivillent of games at Bellagio, Aria NV & Hollywood Hard Rock and The Isle Fl.

Not sure where you got $100/hr at 2/5nl. I never said that.

However, imo, "Crushing" 2/5nl means around 10bb/hr or better ($50/hr) winrate. Once you accumulate enough data to have confidence that $50+/hr is more or less your winrate, then imo you've earned your stripes and should move up to 5/10nl once you accumulate the appropriate bankroll.

Basically, if you are truly beating 2/5nl, your bankroll should be growing naturally. A few months of playing and beating the game is great experience for 5/10nl. The last thing you'd want to do is get to the big game before you are comfortable sloshing $500 and $1,000 bets around.

If you are playing part time (couple of days a week) then it should probably take you around a year's worth of playing 2/5nl before you are "crushing" it imo.

The mistake I see all the time is a player goes on a hot streak in 2/5nl and they can't wait to move up to the 5/10nl, they do so, and get their asses handed back to them. but instead of moving back down to 2/5nl, they get stubborn, stay at 5/10nl and bust their bankrolls.

The other mistake I see is players who are winners at 2/5nl move up to 5/10nl where they are just break even players at 5/10nl A friend of mine is a solid 2/5nl winner but has been break even/slight loser at 5/10nl for the past 3 months and his graph is moving sideways/down. He refuses to come back down in limit because of his ego. He loves saying "Yeah I'm a 5/10nl" player"... Apparently, he likes saying this more than he likes money...

dgi, could you expand on the differences between $2/5 and $5/10 that can make a 6-10bb/hr winner at $2/5 become a BE player at $5/10?

Please try to give specific examples. Example: $2/5 players can't pick good times to 4bet bluff. They keep getting run over at $5/10 by all the light 3betting and get no value when they 4bet.

lol just lol

The biggest conceptual difference I can think of is the comfort level in betting, raising, and the effective stacks and how all of that impacts play.

At 2/5nl the standard preflop raise is $20 - $30 and thus the standard 3bet is around $60-$80 ish. Most players buy-in to 2/5nl for around $400 (usually $500 max). THrough the course of the game players double up and like to hit and run, so stacks rarely get beyond 200BB deep and its rare to see more than 3 players 200BB+ deep. So the game more or less plays at 100BB - 150BB deep.

HOwever, the standard preflop raise in 5/10 is $30 - $60 and thus the standard 3bet is $75 - $180. Most players buy-in to 5/10nl for $1000 or the max which is usually $1500. A LOT of money sloshes around at 5/10nl and players LIKE to play deep stack, so seeing 4 or 5 players at 200BB deep and another 3 players at 300+BB deep is a very common occurrence. So the game plays much deeper than 2/5nl and deep stack poker is DIFFERENT than 100BB poker.

I started to type an example but I don't think I can give you one clear example because there are just so many little things that make the game different. The best way I can explain it is that it takes time to become calibrated. THere are less super donks and idiot fish to bum hunt. Villains aren't going to tremble at your awesome plays like they do at 2/5nl. Villains are going to put you to the test more often, bluff more, think more, and put you to tough decisions.

And contrary to popular belief, the jump in money affects a lot of players psychologically...

When was the last time you saw a $3000 pot at 1/2 won by bottom pair? I wish I had the details of the hand from Thursday night at the $5/$10 game with a former NFL player at the table, but players were sitting with $15000 and there was a $15,000 pot won by a 3. That's right, a pair of 3s stood up at the river and took down $15,000.

From this, but I guess it's not meant literally making 30k over 300 hours. No issue, I wasn't picking on you, as I said you talk sense and just wanted to be sure that wasn't your view on the rate considered crushing.

This is a PERFECt exampe of how the game is different. I see this all the time at 5/10nl and 10/20nl. So, the typical 2/5nl player thinks "wow, i've got to get into this game..."

and so, the 2/5nl player takes a shot and gets in the game. Nits up and finally FINALLY gets AA or KK. He raises and everyone SNAP FOLDS to him. Damn!

So, 2/5nl player decides to "loosen up" a bit and 3-bets light with a wider range, but then gets called and just outplayed post flop.

He nits up again and after a while FINALLY gets AA or KK but then thinks, "Ok, i'll slow play this time." So someone raises $50, three callers and now the 2/5nl player reraises $200 and ALL limpers call. Its a domino effect and now hero's got 5-way action and the pot is $1200 on the flop, effective stacks are $2K, Hero has $2k everyone else is way deeper.

Flop(1200) 9h 8h 5c
V1 beats $1K, V2 raises $2k, V3 calls, action now gets to hero. Hero thinks "These f-ing DONKS!!!!" poker stove and equity calculations go out the window as the emotion of having $1.8K behind and having zero fold equity take over. Hero tanks, fear gets the better of him and he folds.

Or, Hero tilts and just goes all-in. Turn and river don't help hero and Hero ends up losing to one of the villains' crap two pair like 95o or set or straight or flush...

anyways, the game is just different, villians are different, the dynamics are different. It takes experience to be able to not only observe the differences but to recognize and understand just exactly what you are seeing.

And a lot of 2/5nl players "taking a shot" don't. The game looks like a donkfest with a bunch of aggro spewmonkeys when that isn't the case.

funny how a great play by a great player can look totally bad sometimes,
if you don't understand their thought processes.

remember, its the donkey that looks at the absolute value of a hand, instead of it's relative value.
relative value can make some ppl do seemingly strange things.

I recommend reading all of Rob Farha's posts ITT. You will see an amazing progression in thought.

It looks like he is truly a good player, & slowly warmed up to OP's ideas. ...and it worked! Awesome result of reading 2p2, IMO. Good job, Farha!

Not to be a dick but I'm pretty sure KK is a fold here unless the action is just out of control. I understand your point but thats just a little too much.

Thanks

10hr 1k 2/5 session yesterday

I took a shot at 2/5 the other day. Bought in 500 and topped up another 300 after getting aces cracked etc. Cashed out 1660. +800

EZ GAME

$50 an hour has to be somewhere around the upper limit of what one could beat 2/5 for rather than something everyone should be going for. Although I would agree given the gap between 2/5 and 5/10 you probably should be one of those very top 2/5 regs before you move up.

Using bankroll above $2000 for shots at 2/5=the nuts

It will reinvigorate your away from the table study and you will improve
It will quadruple your concentration at the table and you will improve
You will learn a lot from other players and improve
You will recognize and remember your mistakes better and improve
You will win a $2000 dollar pot and be happy
You will double your 1/2 winrate

Great OP post

Just finished reading the entire thread. Great stuff for this forum specifically. I have a couple of thoughts: one, if you look at how long it took you to get to $2500 before you read this thread and decide to "take a shot" at 2/5, you might think, ok if lose my buy-in I can make that back in x sessions. Depending on how small x is here, you might feel very comfortable taking those kinds of shots, hope to run good, and help build bankroll to play 2/5 regularly. Two, something else to think about, if you can make up a buy in at 2/5 in a very short time, why risk it now. You're going to be at 2/5 with a full bankroll in no time if you're that good.

I think a lot of debate itt has focused around people's different definitions of "taking a shot." If taking a shot is playing one session to test your mettle, I'm all for OP suggestion. If people are thinking it means keep playing 2/5 until you're back down to $2k, I don't think it is advisable. Just wait until you have a bigger bankroll to make that kind of "shot".

Great OP. Definetely gave me something to think about.


(Posting after two epic posters)

I agree after taking one shot and winning, 2/5 should be worked in slowly. If you play 2/5 after a win every third session you would be splitting the limits 66%/33%. This would effectively make your total average blind level equal to approximately 1.5/3 blinds.

2/5 * 33% = .66/1.65
1/2 * 66% = .66/1.32
--------------------------
Total 1.32/2.97 Blinds

This may be a good balance to bridge the gap between 1/2 and 2/5.
or
Every fourth time play 2/5

2/5 * 25% = .50/1.25
1/2 * 75% = .75/1.50
--------------------------
Total 1.25/2.75 Blinds

Similar average there. Maybe when we start running good and get our roll up to 4 or 5k we start doing 2/5 every other time and we get.

2/5 * 50% = 1.00/2.50
1/2 * 50% = .50/1.00
---------------------------
Total 1.50/3.50 Blinds

As you increase your roll move to 2/5 every two out of three times, then three out of four times, then your a full timer and your roll should be big enough at this point.

Yes yes?

Just a tiny chart I made, and if interested, I can fully explain more in depth.

Level 1 - 10-15K (3000) and $3000 is the available BR, other number is the total
Restrictions: 1-2 100B stacks and $120 or less, no re-entering and/or no rebuy tournaments
Stop Loss = one buy-in per day and only tournaments or cash games per day, not both

Level 2 - 18K+ (3600)
Restrictions: Primary game is 1-2 100BB (18BIs, BIs based on available BR)
Secondary is 1-2(3) with $300 buy-ins (12BIs)
Shots: $300 2-5
MTTs: $160 or less, same rules as level 1
Stop Loss = Same rules as level 1

Level 3 - 22K (4500)
Restrictions: Primary game is 1-2(3) 100BB (22.5)
Secondary game is $300 1-2(3), 2-5 $300 (15)
Shots: 2-5 $500, up to $900 BI (5-9)
MTT - $235 or less, no more than 1 MTT per month
Stop Loss - Two buy-ins a day, one tournament a day, no cash games or tournaments in same day

Level 4 - 32K (6500)
Primary - $300 1-2(3) 2-5 $300 (22)
Secondary - $500 2-5 (13)
Shots: $600 5-10 or $1000 2-5, one buy-in limit
MTTs: Up to $550, only one a month, two to three $235s or less buy-in per month
Stop Loss: One MTT a day, two buy-in cash a day, no tournament and cash games together days

Level 5 - 60K (12K)
Primary - $300 1-2, $500 1-3, $500 2-5 (24-40)
Secondary - $600 5-10, $1000 2-5 (12-20)
Shots: +BR first, $1500-$2000 5-10, 10-20 (under 1/8 rolling BR for buy-in), one buy-in, once per month
MTTs: same as Level 4
Stop Loss: Same as Level 4

IF YOU LOSE THE ROLLING BR, DROP A LEVEL AND START OVER, YOU ARE NOT READY!!

IF YOU ARE UNDER 10K, SAVE THE MONEY FIRST THEN PLAY!!

That lost me. What's the two different bankrolls and why are you showing playing 1/2 with a 38k and 60k roll

Who can just save up a 10k roll?

Thought to myself the same thing Biju. I've been watching this thread for a while and it has inspired myself (and others apparently) to take a shot at 2/5. Right now I'm in between jobs but I've been grinding poker @ local 1/2 games and winning @ 16bb/hr over 300 hours.. I have my total life/poker roll to about 10k and figured I would take a shot at 2/5. The first session I played for 3 hours at a casino and made $550, the second time I played for 2 hours and lost 300, then played in a short 1.5hr session for 36 (went to dinner and my stack got moved off of the table), and most recently played a 2/5 game where I lost 735 over the course of an hour and a half, lost all the money on two hands where I had KK. I feel like I am definitely not playing the same game I do when I play 1/2... I'm definitely limping a lot less than I do @ 1/2 and trying to be the initial raiser or have position on the raiser. Maybe it's the amount of money on the table that's psyching me out... but I definitely know that some of the stuff I get away with in 1/2 will not work at a 2/5 table... anyways, I'm still going to take shots @ 2/5 until I lose 4BI, at that point I think I'll have to move back down and regrind some 1/2... anyways, cheers to everyone here and good luck... I hope I can move up and turn this into a job..

This is way too conservative. If you are a winning player, 1/2 live is so soft you can have much smaller roll than 3600 total. In fact I've been playing with roughly a 1000 roll for over a month now (150 hours of play) and I'm still alive. Oh and I've made 1300 in that time period, but most of the winnings have been reinvested in poker coaching. And I never leave after just losing one buy-in.

and this (all of the above) is why I posted it...