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Old 01-31-2012, 05:28 PM   #61
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My view is that it takes you roughly One million hands to become a profitable player.

If you play those million hands at 2/5nl live, you can easily lose $60K before you become profitable.

If you play those million hands at $10nl online and 1/2nl live, you can save $30K+ easy.

Don't get me wrong, I don't fault us wanting to move up to 2/5nl, I just think for the most part players go about it the wrong way while simultaneously not understanding what poker is all about.

There are so many losing players at 1/2nl that think the REASON they are losing is becuase they are at 1/2nl and the players are so terribad. They likewise believe that all their problems and leaks will magically disappear when they move up to the "real" game.
One million hands to become a profitable player? Dude that's complete bs. Your living in the online world.

The old timers never played a million hands at one level. That's some 2+2 blahhhhhhhhh.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:36 PM   #62
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

I just play 1/2 90% of the time and sit in a 2/5 game if I know it's really juicy. I'm not a regular 2/5 player but if the game is super awesome, why not play in it if you have a couple buy ins?

I think it's silly to pass up a really juicy game by saying to yourself " I can't play 2/5!!! My bankroll isn't 10K yet!!!! c'mon, you can play if the table's good.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:39 PM   #63
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

I'd say you lack talent for the game if it takes you a million hands to learn to beat 1/2, to the point where I don't think you'll ever be able to beat good players.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:45 PM   #64
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

If it took a million hands to become profitable then the only winning players would be those who ran incredibly hot for incredibly long of periods of time, so no.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:50 PM   #65
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

*grunch*

tldr;

CLIFF NOTES: 1/2 rake is unbeatable and the game is a waste of time. / <<<common knowledge
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:51 PM   #66
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*grunch*

tldr;

CLIFF NOTES: 1/2 rake is unbeatable and the game is a waste of time. / <<<common knowledge
+1, lmao
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:55 PM   #67
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

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One million hands to become a profitable player? Dude that's complete bs. Your living in the online world.

The old timers never played a million hands at one level. That's some 2+2 blahhhhhhhhh.
No, but what those old timers did was deal themselves countless hands "practicing" various scenarios and thus in a sense got that million hands. Read Super System and some of the other older books and they talk about practicing and dealing themselves tons of hands for hours on end...

My million hands requirement is a combination of both live play and online play. Lets face the facts, 90% of players are not winning players.

if you played 8hrs per session at 35 hands dealt per hour and played 100 sessions in a year then that comes out to about 23,000 hands.

play for ten years, that is 230,000 hands.

I can't tell you how many players I play against that have been playing since the 1980s or 90s that are just terribad.

So that million hands requirement isn't so silly when you think about it. Which again helps explain why 90% of players aren't profitable. But perhaps a million is a stretch, I could reduce by a factor of ten and say 100K hands...

Now, can you become a profitable player by only playing 50K hands and reading a couple of books? Sure, if you have the talent and intellect. But for the vast majority of people, they are going to need to play more hands...

I thought that online players were FOS with their "million hands" this and "million hands" that... but after having played online, there is something to seeing a crap load of hands that really helps your game.

I think that in this day and age, if you aren't supplementing part of your game with online play then you are missing out on some serious and valuable poker training.
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:10 PM   #68
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

It might take a million hands if that was all you were doing to improve your game. But there is so much information on the internet and in books that will speed up the process. If it takes that many hands in addition to studying, you simply don't have what it takes.

Likewise, you won't be a winning player simply by studying the material. You need the experience. It's a combination of the two, obviously.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:24 PM   #69
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

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It might take a million hands if that was all you were doing to improve your game. But there is so much information on the internet and in books that will speed up the process. If it takes that many hands in addition to studying, you simply don't have what it takes.

Likewise, you won't be a winning player simply by studying the material. You need the experience. It's a combination of the two, obviously.
+1 and appreciate and agree with most of dg's sentiments minus the 1million hands principle
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:53 PM   #70
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

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THere is this poker elitism and snobbery where we like to look down our noses at the "lesser" games.
I think you're way off base here. The $1/$2 game can just be a really tough and obnoxious way to make money. I remember I played O11 for a couple of hours. I spent the first hour running over the table, the 2nd hour a little bit card dead but I still took down a pot or two. At the end of it all I cashed out $12 down. The rake was a killer against the pot sizes, and half the table was short stacked. At $1/$2!

Contrast that with the last time I was at Aria: there was the sauciest game going on at the $2$5 ($3/$5?) table with people gambling it up getting it all in drawing to the third nuts and other ri-donk-ulousness. And everyone was having a great time too!

And yet I didn't even consider not playing my usual game of $2/$3, which ended up being a table full of nits and 2 Ultra-LAGs with position on me that were making my life miserable.

Never again: if I have the $2500 in my roll and I see a good $2/$5 game going I'll definitely sit down at it. I have a lot of real-life money in the bank so I think I won't be too attached to the money but if I blow it- hey I have no problem dropping back down to get it back up to 2.5k.

Good post OP.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:03 PM   #71
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

dgiharris, you are simply way off base in asserting that it takes a million hands to become a winning player, even online. I have analyzed the databases of over 1000 players. Most of them were winners--well over 95%. Most of them were winners within their first 50,000 hands of poker.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:29 PM   #72
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I suppose it depends on how you define being a winning player. I am not a winner online. I've probably got less than 10k hands online, and half of those are drunk hands.

I've got maybe 40k hands live over 8 years or so, and 30k of those are small stakes LHE. Yet, I'm certain I'm at least a small winner at 1-2 nlhe live. My sample size since I started logging sessions is too small to know yet, but it is encouraging. Plus, I'm studying this site probably 10 hours or more in most weeks, and I would say I've improved more in the last six months than I did in the previous 8 years combined.

Even if I am still a losing player, it most certainly will not take me another 950,000 hands to get there. Especially at 1-2 or 2-5. To be a winner at 5-10 and up? Maybe.

Last edited by myshadow75; 01-31-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:59 PM   #73
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

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dgiharris, you are simply way off base in asserting that it takes a million hands to become a winning player, even online. I have analyzed the databases of over 1000 players. Most of them were winners--well over 95%. Most of them were winners within their first 50,000 hands of poker.
Actually I want to start a thread on how many hands does it take to be a winner live based on all of our stats.

I agree, a million hands is way off when I stop to think about it.

Also have to quantify how much of a winner...
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:06 PM   #74
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Re: Be more aggressive with your bankroll

Top be really good st anything you need ten thousand hours so lets say 100k hands of legit thinking poker plus a lot of off table time running numbers and posting or watching videos
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:21 AM   #75
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Top be really good st anything you need ten thousand hours so lets say 100k hands of legit thinking poker plus a lot of off table time running numbers and posting or watching videos
I believe the saying is 10,000 hours to become an expert in something. I never really bought that, unless they consider that an average number. Certainly it takes much more than that for some people, and less for others.

It also depends largely, of course, on how difficult the thing is that you are trying to master.
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