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Live $5/$10 NL: AK 3b Pot River Spot

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10-20-2014 , 03:06 AM

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

$1600 eff. My image young TAG grinder. Nitty raises to $35 from MP2, V grinder TAG calls OTB, I pop it to $140 from BB, nitty predictably folds, V asks how much I'm playing and reluctantly calls. I estimate V's range to be pretty when he flatted OR and to be narrowed somewhat when he flats my 3b but I really don't know how wide he flats 3bs.

Flop: Td5d5h Pot ~ $320 I bet $160, V calls.
Turn: Ad Pot ~ $640 I bet $320, he calls.
River: 2s Pot ~ $1300

You and why? If you check, how much will you call if anything? If you bet - how much and will you fold to a raise?

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10-20-2014 , 05:05 AM

johnnyBuz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 7,563

I may choose to check the turn here. The flush got there, and however unlikely V is to have a 5, it could certainly be in his range as a way to stack the nit. TPTK OOP on a paired board with a flush seems like asking for trouble by firing a second barrel. But I only play 1/2 so take it for what it's worth.

I have no idea on the river btw. That's a ****ty spot.

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10-20-2014 , 05:39 AM

Seriouspoker

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 68

What did you have?

Last edited by Seriouspoker; 10-20-2014 at 05:48 AM. Reason: Sorry just read the title

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10-20-2014 , 04:15 PM

YoungPokerStar

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 514

This heavily depends on Vs tendency to hero call. If you think he's at least middle - high ground of hero calling, I'd bet/fold about $525. If he's not much of a hero caller, I'd probably check/fold unless he bets pretty tiny (like a thin value AQ bet).

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10-20-2014 , 04:29 PM

JagenGeist

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 235

Check/fold

what on earth are we every getting called by here?

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10-20-2014 , 05:52 PM

Lapidator

LLSNL Frequent Flyer

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 13,762

NH...

x/c OTR. Easy day.

@JagenGeist... No. What are you thinking?

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10-20-2014 , 05:54 PM

bwslim69

I'm a Diva, Bruh

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24,927

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapidator

NH...

x/c OTR. Easy day.

@JagenGeist... No. What are you thinking?

I hate c/c in general so I would really need a reason to do so against a tag villain. OP did you have Kd?

Last edited by bwslim69; 10-20-2014 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Sorry meant Kd

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10-20-2014 , 05:55 PM

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

Listen guys there's only so many options. c/f, c/c and b/f. I haven't heard some solid arguments for any of these yet.

As for turn play, I think a check is too weak. I like a small b/f OTT. Ad removes some flush combos from his range too.

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10-20-2014 , 06:01 PM

bwslim69

I'm a Diva, Bruh

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24,927

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olaff

Well just for funsies how about you actually put some work in here and give us a range somewhere in the hand for the villain. Pick a street and help a brother out??

Capishe?

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10-20-2014 , 06:13 PM

#10

Lapidator

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Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 13,762

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwslim69

I hate c/c in general so I would really need a reason to do so against a tag villain. OP did you have Kd?

I should have been a bit clearer.

x/c an appropriate bet, OTR.

E.g. H checks and V bets $300-450. I can find a pretty easy call here.

I would expect that the majority of the time, he checks it back though. He should never have a 5x here. He's not betting a Tx (and he's probably not calling OTR with Tx).

Betting OTR, probably only gets called by AxYd for Y= K or Q. Which is a pretty small number of hands.

I think V can put in a bet here as a semi-bluff OTR, with hands we beat. E.g. AJ- which does not call a bet, but might bluff if we check to him.

I like the b/f OTT.

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10-20-2014 , 06:17 PM

#11

gus1112

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 988

Grunch: bet 600.... Ck call everything if I think he'll spazz

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10-20-2014 , 06:18 PM

#12

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwslim69

Well just for funsies how about you actually put some work in here and give us a range somewhere in the hand for the villain. Pick a street and help a brother out??

Capishe?

"I estimate V's range to be pretty wide when he flatted OR and to be narrowed somewhat when he flats my 3b but I really don't know how wide he flats 3bs."

That's my best and honest. I'm not psychic.

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10-20-2014 , 06:18 PM

#13

JagenGeist

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 235

Lap, the major it of his range is pps and flush draws.

Is the tag guy really gonna float us for two street and the. Turn pocket 4 into bluff?

What kind of hands can he be betting with that we beat?

He checks back all his Ts and As on 3flush paired board. Bets all boats and all flushes.

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10-20-2014 , 06:26 PM

#14

Lapidator

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Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 13,762

Quote:

Originally Posted by JagenGeist

Are you afraid of every flush you run into? Your post is just MUBS.

He's not calling OTF to hit a FD OTT and then not raise OTT with his made flush. He's not putting H on AAA55 only. FFS.

He can have quite a bit of AyXd, KdZn, TxYd, etc. hands. Most of these do not call OTR, but some might bet if we let him.

As you're proving, its a scary board for AxZb and KK-. So we should let him take a shot at a bluff here.

He can also have AK too, which we shouldn't just give up to.

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10-20-2014 , 06:31 PM

#15

bwslim69

I'm a Diva, Bruh

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24,927

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olaff

"I estimate V's range to be pretty wide when he flatted OR and to be narrowed somewhat when he flats my 3b but I really don't know how wide he flats 3bs."

That's my best and honest. I'm not psychic.

Ok then c/f river, find a coach and work on this a bit because this response is laughable

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10-20-2014 , 06:32 PM

#16

bwslim69

I'm a Diva, Bruh

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 24,927

Esp from a respected Tag grinder playing 5/10

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10-20-2014 , 06:36 PM

#17

JagenGeist

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 235

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapidator

I think with combinatorics it is much more likely he has a flush or a boat as opposed to a weaker Ax hand that will call.

We obviously are at a disagreement as to what an appropriate range here.

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10-20-2014 , 06:52 PM

#18

jvds

adept

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,176

What is your 3b range? You don't need to be psychic for that

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10-20-2014 , 07:44 PM

#19

PokerIsTooEasy

banned

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,004

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwslim69

Esp from a respected Tag grinder playing 5/10

[ ] Respected

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10-21-2014 , 07:42 PM

#20

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvds

What is your 3b range? You don't need to be psychic for that

TT+,AQ+ is kind of a standard. How does this help?

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10-21-2014 , 07:48 PM

#21

aces_dad

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,639

Now what's your calling range for 3bets? Since both you and villain are described as TAG in your OP, you can use that as a rough range.

There's only one 55 and 3 TT on the flop and he'll often raise a flush on the turn - he wouldn't want to not get paid on a 4 flush board. He'll also stick around on the turn with KdKx / QdQx / JdJx quite often.

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10-22-2014 , 05:45 PM

#22

jvds

adept

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olaff

TT+,AQ+ is kind of a standard. How does this help?

because it can help us determine what sorts of hands V arrives at the flop with absent any reads that lead us to believe that he thinks your 3b range is different from what it actually is. this can lead you to assumptions about V's strategy and ranges on each street, and can eventually help us figure out how we might want to play our range vs his on the river. for instance, it is helpful to know that we can never have a flush on the river (and depending on how we answered earlier questions, that V can have quite a few). essentially, we should really be trying to play range vs range on each street, so it is obviously good to know what our range is.

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10-22-2014 , 06:24 PM

#23

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

Quote:

Originally Posted by aces_dad

My 3b flatting range is almost non-existant (look at my other thread) so it's not at all reflective of this guy or majority of $5/$10 TAGs. And what line OTR are you suggesting?

I'm really not getting a lot of actual lines and reasoning suggested. I guess because it's a difficult spot.

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10-22-2014 , 06:25 PM

#24

Olaff

banned

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 1,627

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvds

This is so vague. What line are you taking OTR and why?

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10-22-2014 , 07:33 PM

#25

Javanewt

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12,764

I like the check/call otr.

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