2/5 NL on a weekday afternoon so pretty tough table full of regs.

Hero is a rec player who is unknown to the table. Been playing for about 3 hours mostly with same tablemates and haven't shown down anything too interesting except for disgustedly folding 99 to a river shove after a KK9 flop went 77 on turn/river. All other pots were small and standard, hero is a slight loser so far on the day. Probably seen as ABC haven't had any spots to do much.

Villain is Asian reg who seems to be playing a solid game. A tiny bit tighter pre-flop than average at the table, seems strong post-flop in the few pots he raised. No memorable hands shown down.

Hero is in SB with $500
Villain is in Cutoff with $485

Preflop
2 limps to Villain in Cutoff who makes standard open to $25
Hero calls from SB with A10
BB folds, both limpers call 4 way to flop

Flop - ($110) - A83
Checks around

Turn - ($110) - A83K
Hero leads for $60
Limpers fold
Villain calls $60

River - ($230) - A83KQ
Hero bets $80 going for some thin value
Villain shoves all in for $320 more

Hero????


Live Tell Info
Not sure if this influences, but after I had been thinking for about 3 minutes (definitely not short, but not crazy long) villain calls clock. First time in my life had a clock called on me.


I did get to find out what villain had so will share that later along with my thought and decision. It was a pretty gross spot.

River value bet is way too thin. What worse hands call you on river? Is reggy V really raising many worse Ax combos pre from CO? Underpairs to the Q don't make much sense.

River is just a snap fold to the raise. How does he show up with any hands he wants to bluff here after calling your turn bet? Spades got there, as did JT and KQ. I think this is a snap fold even if it turns out he was bluffing this one time, i.e. this is a fold even if V is capable of raising river as a bluff, which most Vs are not capable of at 2/5.

I don't know what the clock means, but IMO 3 minutes is a loooong time to take for this decision, so I wouldn't read too much into it. I think it's only a tell that he wanted to get to the next hand.

Win, lose, or draw, the right play here is to fold. You have no reads to suggest a bluff, if it is a bluff, mark it down and move on.

So you guys check fold river?

No, not necessarily, but I definitely don't lead out on the river. The hand obviously has showdown value, so I'd just check it and hope to get to that. However, if villain underbets the river after a check from hero, then hero can call. As played though, it's a snap fold. The flush, KQ, and QQ all got there on the river. AQ and AK are both viable hands for the villain at this point. All hero has is a bluff catcher, and there's nowhere near enough evidence to suggest that the villain is bluffing.

Not necessarily, but I probably check and evaluate based on sizing if he bets river. No value in leading river IMO though, and if we lead river it's only so we can snap fold if raised.

This is the worst river card in the deck for your hand - you aren't going for thin value you're now bluffing. Checking river and probably folding are best.

Well lets evaluate Vs range: on the flop, pretty unlikely to have had Ax on the flop sonce he checked. could have whiffed or could have 8x, or a set and decided to slowplay.

Turn, the call probably means a medium strength hand. Kx, QQ-99, 8x. A hand like AA or 88 would raise turn since its gotten wet. He also could call with a flush draw, unlikely to call with a gutshot, but i guess maybe he has QJ or JT.

River, ok well he didnt call your turn with literally nothing, so his flush draw got there, KQ hit 2 pair, QQ hit a set. Is he good enough to turn a made hand into a bluff due to your blocker bet? If so, 99-JJ and MAYBE KJ-K9 are bluffing here (although even KJ, youre saying he is tighter) you basically gotta win 40% to be right here. I dont think youve got 40%.

Why not squeeze preflop from the SB with AT ?
Anyway, wtf .., not too bad what you did preflop. I would be very selective and very very aggressive against a late position raiser from my SB. Much more selective then you are and much more aggressive normally you are. Now, why check the flop when you got what you been looking for?

When you play ATs pre what you want to flop? - I tell you what: You want TP because to flop a flush-draw is like 10.5% and to flop a pair on the flop with any two cards is 33%. So most likely you'll be flopping a pair or miss. So, you got it and you check it. Why is that? - I'm sure you didn't look to flop two pair .. wtf? for 2% of the time you play a hand.

Now, on the turn you aren't sure where you stand and also don't know what to do on the river. No good as an overall playing plan for cold cash.

This was exactly why I went for thin value. I have been working more on finding these spots to avoid my river bets being too polarized. I thought villain almost has to bet Ax on the flop in position as the pre flop raise in a 4 way pot (maybe check to trap HU but not 4 way).

So I was specifically trying to get value from Kx, and maybe some underpairs that thought I was stabbing and wanted to find a hero call.

At the time I was thinking on the river the fact that the AKQ were all on board was really material to the hand as it greatly reduced villains flush draw combinations with his turn call as the preflop opener.

I think if the A or K was a different suit but still a 3 card flush on board it would be a snap fold to the shove. But with the AKQ all made it much closer to me at the time.

I fold now. Too many hands beat you.

I don't mind the way the hand was played, but I might just donk on flop if I think I have the best hand. I don't mind ending it early and can fold to a raise pretty easily. If I don't bet flop, I probably don't bet turn, and if I do, I bet $75. As played, if you are going to bet river, I think it needs to be more. I would probably check/decide river. If you are going for thin value because you think you are ahead, just check/call and let him take a stab. Too easy for him to bluff raise you here or raise with the goods, and you just never know.

Appreciate the thoughts, although I do disagree with most of this at least in the 2/5 games I play in.

I might have squeezed if it went open, call, call, instead of limp limp, open. But 3b from SB risks a lot with only a small cutoff open to win. More likely my 3b gets called by a competent player with a wide range and I am playing OOP with a marginal hand.

On the flop I am checking 100% of my range here. Donking into 3 players including the PFR seems really bad (especially since I am not THAT strong). I checked expecting PFR to c-bet much of the time and assuming the limpers didn't do anything on a dry board I probably see a turn, on a wet board I probably check raise the flop.

I certainly wasn't playing A10 to flop a flush but we disagree on the right way to get value and minimize risk on the flop.

I agree with this post generally, except two things:

1. People will sometimes check back strong Ax hands on dry boards on the flop. I certainly do at times (though less like to do it multi-way). Effectively pot-controlling in a WA/WB situation. For instance, on this board hard for anyone to have more than 5 outs or so.

2. Math in the bolded is wrong. We bet $80 into a $230 pot. So when V puts his $80 in, pot is $390. V is shoving $320 more, so 710:310=2.3:1. We need about 30% equity to call here. At the table, I would just note that V's raise is a bit less than pot-sized. We need 33.3% equity to call a pot-sized bet, so need a bit less to call this one. I don't think we have it obviously, but important to get the math right.

Grunch: Snap fold as played.

River is bet is questionable because the flush gets there, as well as KQ, QQ, and JTs. All of which will narrow the range of hands we beat, but also make it harder for him to call with a worse hand with so many better out there.

Nobody has mentioned this yet... since it was my first time in years of casino play having a clock called on me (and only maybe 3rd or 4th time I've ever seen it on a table I played at) it seemed really material, but I wasn't sure which direction?

Would you have let that influence your decision and if so which direction?

As mentioned it was probably 3 minutes, maybe less, when he called the clock, not a short time, but not crazy long either compared to many other experiences at that casino. It was short enough when the floor came over after talking to the dealer he didn't even start the clock for a bit.

3 minutes is an eternity at 2/5 for a 60bb decision.

Flip a coin after 60s next time.

What hands can he have here that you still beat?

The bet otr is terrible if you don't already know what to do when he raises.

The bet on this river is terrible regardless of whether you know how to play when he raises the river.

I called the clock when I had the nuts and it was the only time I ever called a clock. Not to let him talk himself out of the call and to make him think I want a fold - he called. People called the clock on me twice this year, one time I called - same, v had it. I'm not sure if it's relevant but think about it... It's suicidal for v to go all in with anything less than 2 pair. I'd fold in 1 minute.

Are you seriously advocating squeezing from OOP with a trashy dominated A, when you are getting a great price to just nut-mine?

Squeezing here is beyond terrible.

3bet/fold pre - if called check this flop (you can bet it but you want some strong hands to check and it's hard to get value from worse) - You can bet turn

Calling pre makes the hand harder to play and you will end up making mistakes sometimes

as played check probably fold. River bet is a leak.

3 minutes is forever. Turn on a stopwatch and just sit and stare at something for 3 minutes and you'll see how long it feels to others at the table. I wouldn't really let this feed into your decision making at all.

I'm with the 3! or fold pre camp here... and I don't understand your rebuttal of only winning the CO raise... That's supposed to be the point of a 3! regardless if you have AA or ATs one side being value oriented 3! and the other a semi-light 3!

You should 3! pot or fold here. Make it 90 pre and put some damn pressure on these Regs

Likely outcome with flop given... 90 pre... fold fold... CO calls 90

Flop comes as given and hero leads out 130. Villain folds.

Hero is happy.

OK, I can agree. What I'm saying most likely it's written in stone, of course. You know better than me, you've been at the table, not me... So, I can see the logic, you know, it all depends.

Results

I eventually called and Villain showed 99 so I took it down.

I believe villain was half floating half not giving up to a stab on the turn. When the river connected to the board so hard, and I led out with a weakish looking bet, I think he saw opportunity to turn it into a good bluff.

Thoughts
Thanks for all the input and strat talk, seems as if consensus is the river thin bet was bad and the call was also bad even if right in this spot.

I think up through turn is pretty standard.

I was surprised to see so many folks thought the river bet was bad. While not always the best move in individual spots, I definitely find being able to work in thin bets on hands exactly like this (not too big pots, nothing saying villain or hero is super strong) is actually really helpful in other spots where you have monsters or are bluffing. But seems as if consensus is against that so I'll have to do some more thinking on that.

My initial instinct was to snap fold as in live poker a shove over a river bet seems to be nutted 80-90% of the time at 2/5 in the games I play.

My river call came down to the following logic based on the info at the time of the river shove.

This is obviously all IMO, and I seemed to evaluate ranges differently than most on this thread so I'm glad I made it to see different PoVs

1. Villains shove is super polarized
2. Villain never has Ax here based on the way the flop and turn went so therefore does not have a strong 2 pair (AK, AQ).
3. My range is pretty wide on my river bet, I can have sets based on my line, and even some small SC flush type hands (where I led the turn when I picked up the draw)
4. Because of 2 and 3 villain IMO is just calling the river with everything except for Broadway and Flushes
5. Decent villain almost never calls turn bet with J10 on a AK83 board to hit the gutter
6. Because the 3 spades on board were all AKQ there are massively fewer combos of spade draws on the turn that hit (because Villain was PFR).
7. I was a little afraid of QQ and the occasional Js10s or 10s9s, but value combos seemed to be very few.
8. Villain can put my turn bet as a stab and call/float with lots of hands. I am very unlikely in a pot I didn't 3 bet to be anywhere near nutted on this board. My river bet looks like it could be super blockerish.

9. Because of 7 and 8 I called


I posted b/c I thought the hand went from super boring/standard to super interesting in an instant on the river.

Really interesting to see such strong consensus that the river lead and shove call were both bad. Going into the strat bank to adjust as appropriate. Thanks!

You might of left out that villain is a spew tard and not a reg. He literally calls turn to turn his hand into a bluff vs an uncapped range.