Ok I thought this was an interesting hand I played soon after I sat down at a 2/5 game at Delaware Park yesterday. I had played maybe 5 hands, had no previous history with this player and no reason to think he was particuarly good or bad. I bought in for $1,000 and my opponent started the hand with $500. Villian UTG+1 limps, 2 folds, I raise to $20 WITH AJ, button calls, blinds fold. Flop is 10 J 3 rainbow. Villian donks the flop for $50. I contemplate raising here but decide to flat call, the button calls as well (pot $215). Turn is 6, there are no flush draws. Villian thinks a few seconds and leads out for $75, I call, button folds (pot $365). River is 8. Villian checks to me. His stack size is now around $350. What's my line here? What is he leading the flop and turn with and checking the river? Do I shove all in, representing a busted qk draw and try to get a call from kj or qj? Do I bet half the pot and fold to a shove? Do I play pot control and check? Will post results in a little bit

hand?

Sorry people, my hand is AJ

The only hands that you are losing to that might make sense are sets or maybe J10 two-pair. But that line does not fit those hands. Q9 or 79 are the only hands that made a straight, and that doesn't make sense either. It's possible he would limp call with those hands if they were suited, and then lead with blockers hoping to not get raised.

If you're not willing to risk a raise, then just check. If you don't think he will raise then you can try to put out a $100 value bet. It feels like a poorly played hand and you are probably ahead. You were just calling so he might have thought you were chasing a straight and got there with the 8. The $75 into a $215 pot is just odd. Can't really tell if that was a blocker or an attempt at a value bet. Sometimes that's a weak hand just not wanting to risk too much in case you raise. Maybe he has a 10. Why didn't you raise the turn?

played perfect, now shove river

I dont think hes going to calli river to a shove. Opp dependant tho of course. I think i might VB here ~150. His line to me seems more like a week jack than the straight.

i would put him on a jack and value bet for ~$125.

if he shoved that would suck.

Thanks for the input---I tanked for about 30 seconds, tried to look as weak as I could, and announced all in. My thinking was that he would look me with up with qj or kj---as my line looks a lot like qk. I did not think there were hardly any straights in his range and the only hands I thought might be beating me were 10 J and 33, which did not seem likely for him to take that line on. When he tanks for about 30 seconds, I was sure I was good, then he says I have to call and flips over 33! I felt a bit slowrolled, he said he was worried about a higher set. I ended up valuebetting myself but just wanted to make sure that most of you agree that valuebetting the river is going to be +EV there

I bet river ~$120. Big bet will only get called by a hand that beats you.

Don't post results so quick

It seems like most people advocate a smaller value bet...if I bet $125 I do have to fold the times he check raises me for $225 more right??? Given the action he was not checking to trap me, he was actually scared money...but in general is this a bet/fold?

It really depends on villain. I know alot of people will say"pot odds u have to call,blah,blah" but just decide if you're beat by way villain bets and type of opponent he is. He sounds extra weak/scared, you should be able to pick up on this. If you're beat, you're beat, even with 10:1 odds. Save $ any way you can

Live c/r on the river are very rare llsnl and if he were to do this then you can almost be certain (99%) that you are beat. Especially given the description of scared money (passive)... if he were to c/r the river I would light my cards on fire and muck them into the trash can. Thin value bet on the river works just fine as he will call you with the best hand at times, call you with worse hands other times, and if he c/r us we dont lose as much.

yea i would have bet 140-150ish. if he has like qj he would call. but AI, hes only calling with 2 pair or better.

I would check. The only hand that is calling, is beating you in that spot.

Your play is horrible,
pf Raise then call, call and ai the river

This is an incorrect hierarchy of action. Raise, Call, Call, AI. In most cases, unless you have a drawing hand, the correct “order of operations” is the following:

Best choice: Raise
Second best choice: Fold
Worst choice: Call

Or

Best choice: Fold
Second best choice: Raise
Worst choice: Call

This is a truism of poker that just about every professional knows and just about every novice does not. It is not a hard concept to understand, yet it can take many years for it to become apparent to a novice player if someone doesn’t take the time to explain it. Most players never got it. Although it’s easy to understand, there is no doubt that it is counterintuitive.

When you raise there are four scenarios:
1. You have the best hand, and your opponent folds.
2. You have the best hand, and your opponent calls.
3. You have the worst hand, and your opponent folds.
4. You have the worst hand, and your opponent calls.

When you call, call, you’ve got to show the best hand to win and obviously after you’ve got bet into twice and you called twice you didn’t have the best hand. Plus the blunder on the river with your AI

Vilain's play was brilliant
He leads into the pf raiser with a set and sucked you in

Oh, by the way, You play pot control on the flop or turn not on the river. There are no more cards to come. So, you either have it or not. There is nothing to pot control on the river when the opponent leads into the pf raiser and you the pf raiser call twice
Che

Of course, when you're reraised it sets up mult repeat scenarios of this, or more reraises.

Very good, you're right

But hero did practice pot control here on flop and turn, right? He messed up on river only IMO. You can't practice pot control by folding.

Thats why we thin value bet.

Che there's a few confusing things about your post to me:

Best choice: Raise
Second best choice: Fold
Worst choice: Call

Is this referring to the action on the flop? While you can certainly make a case for the best play being a raise on the flop, which in hindsight I would probably agree with...I can never see how folding top pair/top kicker on the flop when the villian limp/calls preflop is better than calling his bet.

Also calling the villian's play "brilliant" here is giving him way too much credit. I will give him credit for playing the hand unusually and thus causing me to lose more money than I usually would here, but it was clear when he tanked the river that his goal was not to "suck me in." He was confused and unsure where he was at in the hand.

As far as your comment on pot control, fine. What I meant to say was do I check and lose the minimum when I'm beat or try to maxumize my value. I don't know if you play much 2/5 live but in my experience, and it seems in the experience of the other posters who have advocated a value bet on the river...I am usually ahead of his range on the river given the way he played the hand. In my opinion it was an unusual spot given that I had just sat down with no reads on my oponent and while I did not play the hand optimally, I will stand by my play and thought process during hand as being better than "horrible."

Super easy value bet is super easy and OP don't even bother reading anything Che posts its so often complete rubbish.

I thought you played flop and turn fine! River value bet or value shove if he has the ability to call down with marginal hands.