2/5 10 handed
Hero young white kid. tight and card dead until this hand. 425 starting stack.
V loose aggressive young and white. Covers hero.

OTTH: couple ep limpers. Hero makes it 30 with KhKs in MP. CO calls 30. V calls in BB and 1 limper calls.

Flop (115) after rake. 10c7c4c. Checked to hero who bets 100. CO folds. V goes all in. Folded back to hero who should?

probably just go 75/fold on the flop. might check as well

PF: A little low. With two limpers, I'd make it 40 to set up a more favorable SPR for my "smaller" stack. By making it 40, with only one caller we go from an SPR of ~5.5 to ~4.

F (127): Pot should be $127 (without rake): $5+$5+$30+$30+$2+$30+$25=$127. SPR is ~3. How much does V have when he goes all in? Does he cover you? I'll assume so. I'm never folding KK here against a "loose aggressive" on this board with an SPR of 3. If V has AcXx, then he's got 12 outs and it's basically a flip.

Some better reads on villain other than "loose aggressive" would be nice.

You have 325 left and there's 325 in the pot. You're getting exactly 2:1 and you need to win 33% of the time.

I don't think I'm folding to either a loose or an aggressive player with an overpair on a draw-heavy board with <100 BB's and a pot-sized CRAI.

Against a loose aggressive player, this might be a call, but in game, I'd probably fold.

Has he shown any bluffs?

Agree w/ more pre and less on flop.

Agree pre flop raise should be more, 40-50 is better.

I'd most likely check this flop since its 4 ways and only 1 left to act behind. Generally players are gonna play their hands straight-up in a multi-way pot.

Since you bet so big and this kid moved in I think its a fold. It looks pretty strong for this protected pot. Best case scenario you're up against a naked Ac which you're slightly ahead of. More often its a made flush or even 44/77.

cawl

This.

Lol at raising to $40-$50. OMG I haz KK. Don't want to lose with my kings. I need to bet sooo much that everyone fold. When I have 89s, I bet $25. When I haz KK, I bet $50. When I haz AA, I bet $75!!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. I think the folks saying that OP should have raised more are results-oriented because he got 3 callers. You can't exactly raise a field of limpers to $80 with QJs OTB.

I play in an underground game and I've seen 3-bets to $165 called in four places. I still keep my opens to $20 + $5/limper so I can keep my range wide without spewing preflop.

At my 2-5 game, with a hand like this I usually raise $25 plus $5 for every limper. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. I also vary my size based on what I'm aiming for from the hand. So here, with two limpers already, I would probably have raised to 35, maybe 40. At the games I play, that's not folding everyone out. I routinely see multi-way action for $35 or even $45 dollars. I agree 50 is a bit large. But the advice to raise than $30 larger isn't silly.

As played, you need a plan before taking your flop action.

After the flop, V's will have either whiffs, strong hands, or strong draws. There aren't many hands you're going to get value from. TP isn't going to put a lot of money in the pot. JJ and QQ aren't likely and also aren't putting a lot in the pot. On the other hand, flushes, sets, and strong flush draws are probably willing (or eager) to get their chips in the middle.

Because the flop is monotone, the only NFDs are offsuit aces that called pre. AKo and AQo are certainly candidates. Some V's will 3b with AK (or even AQ). Some V's will fold AQo. Some V's will play weaker offsuit. Similar reasoning applies to the Kc, but with fewer combos. Similarly, some V's will 3b with TT and some might fold 44. Flush candidates include SCs, suited aces, suited broadways, and suited one-gaps.

I used a range of 44+, AQo+, A8s+, 54s+, 75s+, and assumed he'll shove any flush, set, or NFD. In this case you have 33% equity. Given the error bars around the assumptions, we're basically indifferent between calling and folding here. Obviously changing the range or assumptions about V will move this around, but it's still going to be pretty close.

Since V's ranges are polarized, i.e. likely to fold or shove on any real bet, it makes sense to bet relatively small here. If that gets shoved, you have an easy fold. I think $60 is good enough. That should fold out the cruft and spring the traps set by the stronger hands with minimal damage. If that gets called, I'm probably shoving a blank turn. I expect sets and some flushes would have announced themselves on turn and so should be against a more draw-heavy range on the turn. I'm happy to make them pay too much to draw or surrender their equity in the pot at that point.

If a club comes, I'm not putting any more money in the pot. If an ace comes I'm looking for a cheap showdown.

Shoving is clearly bad as about 23% of the starting range is ahead and will call and there are two V's. Also, any draws that do call are probably correct to do so, reducing our equity.

Checking makes the turn harder to play by allowing very weak draws to accidentally get a hand or increasing the chances someone gets frisky with a draw.

Peel. You're way too far down to bet flop 4 handed. Try to get a small street on non club non A turns if the two in front ck again. Don't put in another penny after that.

It's just ridiculous how many threads I see where Hero 3bets QQ OOP and gets called in two spots, or Hero opens a big pair and gets called in 3-5 spots where I see so many comments relating to how you should have sized up pre.

No, no you shouldn't. It's really bad advise.

Agreed. I rarely see winning 2-5 players turning their hands faceup pre. The only exception being marginally winning regs.

Pre is fine. I'd cbet a little less, probably $70-80. It's unlikely you'll get three players to fold. I'd want to bet enough to encourage a fold and small enough to get away if c/r.

I think you have to fold. You're practically drawing dead against flushes and sets (12-16 combos). You're about 50% against AcXx hands and other semibluff hands. Villain needs about 20-25 semibluffs in order to call. I doubt villain has that many offsuit connectors and AcXx in his shoving range.

That's fine but it's not the only consideration. What do you figure the difference looks like for a range given $30 sizing as opposed to $40 or $50?

Never checking this flop. Pre is fine a little smaller if bet folding flop but if bet Gii I'd bet about this size so call now hand is fine IMO.

I dont mind the preflop raise would rather 35-40
If you raise to 50 you just wont usually get action and you are just turning you hand into a bluff. And most people will just fold hands that you want to play against. Again maybe the game is crazy and 50 will get multiple calls i just dont know the game as you would
On the flop you have to bet you cant give a free card as you will be put in a really tough spot if it get checked through.
I do think you cbet was too much i like 65-75. When someone check raises here i am think you are behind a lot of the time and probably fold but given your read is so vague i dont really know.
If villain has done some checkraise semi bluffs before or if villain attacks weakness maybe i could call but not really feeling good about it

nothing wrong with the pre size.

flop - you could check it. when you bet and get shoved on, it is most likely a made baby flush, a set, or a dry ace high flush.

I would fold.

I am wondering why the LAG is check/shoving here. If villain does have a made-flush, he is risking that hero folds with ~300 behind. The only reason to protect his flush, is if he does not hold a high-club, e.g. Ac, Kc, but villain can still check/call to see whether a 4th club hits the board. If villain check calls with a made-flush, he still makes as much as when villain folds to the shove, and no more money goes into the pot on the turn or river. I think the LAG wants you to fold, so I think you should call.
I think you need ~38% equity to call, given the shove. If the villain has a set or a flush, you are ~40:60, with his range including plausible draws; if villain is just drawing, you are ~55:45, without sets/made-flushes; otherwise you are ~5:95. The call hinges on whether you think the LAG wants you to fold your over-pair.
Of course this is easy to say off the table and hard to do, especially in the heat of battle.

As for OP, sizing pre is good so long as you are consistently making this sizing or a comparable sizing with your entire range. You'd hate for your opponents to spot you a premium with this sizing and weaker hands for a different sizing.

This is just a bad flop for your hand, and you're multiway, so bet/fold is fine even against LAG. Your cbet could be smaller.

Ok heres my non sarcastic response:

While its true many people say "raise more" as a defense mechanism when they see that OP made a normal raise with a big hand and gets called 4+ places, sometimes they are actually right. I think some of you are giving your opponents too much credit to be able to read a bigger bet size as strength. Half of the people or more at the table probably dont know or care what OPs normal open size is. They arent 2+2ers, at least half are just there and not thinking that much and are definitely not scrutinizing people's bet sizes. This works out well, because raising big means these are the exact type of people we will be playing the pot against.

Half of the table isnt thinking "hmm, why did OP raise that much? I remember him raising less before..." they are thinking "holy **** it took me 50 minutes to get dealt this QJo and by god I am playing it". You are projecting onto random live players who arent very astute high level poker knowledge that you have instead of seeing them for what they are: some random working class dad who just wants to play some cards and hit some flops. You are projecting your deeper poker thinking onto these players.

This hand also illustrates another point I want to make about live poker. Many times when raising you can receive either many callers, or none. The amount is often polarized and based on whether 1 idiot called early on which convinces the rest of the table to call train on top of him in hopes of bingoing the flop in a big multiway pot, perhaps one that has a big pair in it that wont be quickly going away. This is another point for raising large, it forces these many calling stations who are trying to bingo flops to really pay for that, and often they do because people love to see flops on speculation and then run away after they miss.

I believe with live poker you can vary raise sizing with minimal exploitation. All you have to do is mix in some 89s and whatnot into your big open raise range sometimes.

My earlier posts about opening to 100 were obvious jokes, but I think you should test out bigger raises at your tables and really push the limits to see what sizes people are willing to call and how often. If youre raising 5-7bb people are autocalling that **** without even thinking simply because they came to the casino to play not to fold. If people are still calling your bigger raises, then just do it mostly with a strong range. If people are seeing your big open raises and just auto mcfolding up and laughing/getting annoyed by it, do it with all kinds of suited connectors and bull**** until they start calling.

First off, let's please have a constructive conversation about the hand. There is no need to call me or anyone else an "idiot". Disagreements are fine, but resorting to name calling is not appropriate.

Raising to $40 with two limpers is not absurd by any means. A 6x raise in middle position and adding on another $10 for two limpers is not outrageous. Obviously, the table dynamics will also dictate if this size of raise is possible

OK, a reminder to everyone: No trolling strat threads in LLSNL, period. We've deleted several posts ITT.

Also, if you see it, just hit the report button. Don't make a post about it in the thread.

Preflop raises are table dependent imo. If you are consistently getting called in 5 places making a "standard" 2.5-4bb raise. The simple solution is to raise more. Who care if it's exploitable.

If you aren't playing somewhat exploitably at LLSNL then you are, more times than not, leaving money on the table.

If you figure that the $50 range has a lot more value hands in it as opposed to the $30 range, then I think we're saying the same thing.

OTOH, I frequently play with players who see me open a pot for $20 in EP, and raise OTB when there are already 6 limpers in the pot to $50 and they say, "Why such a big raise?" So many the idea above about people generally not having a clue what's going on has some merit to it.