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Old 04-21-2017, 07:49 AM   #1
Petrucci
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KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

As the title tells, the hand in question came down in a late night homegame. We have been playing for like 10 hours and is 6 handed at the moment around 7 AM in the morning.

Hero-1800$. Solid winning image this session. Playing solid TAG poker and abusing the passive-loose table this game by valuebetting people properly, well timed C-bets alongside getting dealt a good amount of premium starting hands.

Villain-1250$. Hero has never played with villain before,a guy in his late twenties from Pakistan.I know he is kind of a reg in another underground club though, playing lot of hours.Been running hot in first few hours of the session, making hands and getting paid. Seen him 3 bet routinely pre with hands like JJ. 5 minutes before this hand he lost a huge 600 BB pot when he his AA got cracked by KK allin on KJ4 flop in a 4 bet pot, and villain is visually tilted as well as starting to spew. Hero watched him 3 bet A5 off OOP prior to this hand and check- called 2 huge bets postflop with A high no draw on 6-7-10 rainbow flop.

To the hand: hero is UTG with black KK and raises to 40$ on villains 10$ straddle. Villain 3 bets to 110$, hero responds with a 4bet to 300$. Villain pauses for couple of seconds before verbally announcing "allin" and hero instantly get a bad feeling in his stomack and feels like this is a legit big decision even holding a preflop monster like KK.

Hero? What parameters do you put weight into when assigning villains 5 bet allin range at this point of the session?

Last edited by Petrucci; 04-21-2017 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:26 AM   #2
BackDoorFlush
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

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villain is visually tilted as well as starting to spew
Snap call.

Also, you are only 125bbs deep with the straddle on.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:27 AM   #3
pvhawkeye
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

So according to pot odds we need to win this pot 38% of the time. From your description I would put QQ+, AK, and a wild JJ in his range. Let's say he only does this half the time with AK and JJ. Combos you beat: 17. Combos beating you (aces): 6. Let's say he is only doing this with QQ+, and he will definitely do this move at this point in the night (he will do this with 100% of his QQ+). You are 50/50 and only have to be right 38% of the time. It could be a small edge but it's an edge. Ready for variance?

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Old 04-21-2017, 08:34 AM   #4
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

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So according to pot odds we need to win this pot 38% of the time. From your description I would put QQ+, AK, and a wild JJ in his range. Let's say he only does this half the time with AK and JJ. Combos you beat: 17. Combos beating you (aces): 6. Let's say he is only doing this with QQ+, and he will definitely do this move at this point in the night (he will do this with 100% of his QQ+). You are 50/50 and only have to be right 38% of the time. It could be a small edge but it's an edge. Ready for variance?

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Absolutely ready for variance. Even though the thought of possibly losing a 500 BB pot sucks moneywise (especially this late when the game usually breaks in 1-2 hours timespan and i am up over 200 BB), i am not scared money- and if i believe the correct play rangewise is to get it in i do just that.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:57 AM   #5
pvhawkeye
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

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Absolutely ready for variance. Even though the thought of possibly losing a 500 BB pot sucks moneywise (especially this late when the game usually breaks in 1-2 hours timespan and i am up over 200 BB), i am not scared money- and if i believe the correct play rangewise is to get it in i do just that.
What would suck even more is folding away $300 and him showing you something ridiculous like 99. But yes I would feel sick until I saw the river. Get the adrenaline pumping!

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Old 04-21-2017, 10:56 AM   #6
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

It's pretty tough to dump kk pre-flop,villan only needs a couple of combos of ak or qq and it becomes +eV to gii... I only fold kk pre to the nittyest of omc's
Sucks that it's for 500bb but that's deep stack late night poker
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:22 PM   #7
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

Against this particular villain in this scenario, never folding here. This is a snap call.

I assume you ran into AA given the post but I don't think you can ever get away from this.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:32 PM   #8
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

If you're planning on folding or scared to put all the money in pre, don't 4b.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:32 PM   #9
spikeraw22
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

What's wrong with flatting his 3 bet in position with a still pretty lowSPR? You're not folding often anyway and it gives him a chance to be a tilty Mctilt on the flop and turn. Once you 4 bet to $300 just gii. If you're actually thinking about folding then make your 4 bet smaller.
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Old 04-22-2017, 06:12 AM   #10
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

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What's wrong with flatting his 3 bet in position with a still pretty lowSPR? You're not folding often anyway and it gives him a chance to be a tilty Mctilt on the flop and turn. Once you 4 bet to $300 just gii. If you're actually thinking about folding then make your 4 bet smaller.

Its not wrong at all to flat, many good reasons for doing so. I hesitate to take the flat route sometimes when its lots of money behind. It could well be that would have been the most +EV line in this spot, even though as mentioned i am not exactly thrilled about the SPR, when we se a flop for 110$ each with like 1100$ effective behind.

To eleborate little bit on my reasoning at the moment, i felt like 4 bet is the best route to possibly get all his money.At the time it seemed like the right timing going for the throat. Seems like he can either call my 4 bet with worse cause he is on tilt having no fold button (with the pot being huge going to the flop setting him up to make one possibly costly mistake for his whole stack)- or shove pre with worse.
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:39 PM   #11
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
villain is visually tilted as well as starting to spew.
Fist pump snap call. With this information his range shold be wide and including ace rags and medium pocket pairs. I've seen enough rediculous aip hands at 7 am in a home game to snap this off even if he wasn't tilted.
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:19 PM   #12
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

4bet is the clear play here. Hand was well played and standard, we want to get the money in here vs a tilted villain in a late night underground game.

If we run into AA here it's a setup and nothing we can do. No reason to slow play, engage in fancy play syndrome, or ever find a fold in this situation.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:07 PM   #13
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

After we 4bet it's a snap call. Not really close. It's not 250bb deep, it's 125bb deep. If he has aces you can still hit a king
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Old Yesterday, 07:25 AM   #14
Petrucci
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

Thanks for the replies this far.

Before i give the results, it would be nice if people want to give their take on my question in the OP: wich parameters do you put the most weight on when ranging villain accurately in this spot?

Do you weighten the fact that he is tilted the most? Do you weighten the stacksizes of 250 BBs, or do you think that villains get it in range pre is the same with 250 BB as with 100 BB at this point in the game?

If we play around a little bit what are we doing with AK and QQ here in this same spot? Are we assigning him a wide enough range to get it in with these hands also?
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Old Yesterday, 09:52 AM   #15
Jarretman
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Thanks for the replies this far.

Before i give the results, it would be nice if people want to give their take on my question in the OP: wich parameters do you put the most weight on when ranging villain accurately in this spot?
This is really the only parameter you need in this spot hah

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hero is UTG with black KK
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Old Yesterday, 02:56 PM   #16
Keaton
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
We have been playing for like 10 hours and is 6 handed at the moment around 7 AM in the morning.

villain is visually tilted as well as starting to spew. Hero watched him 3 bet A5 off OOP prior to this hand and check- called 2 huge bets postflop with A high no draw on 6-7-10 rainbow flop.
Villain's range is a little ambiguous given the perfect storm circumstances, but I'd say JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AKs, AKo, possibly something like AQs are all well within his range to jam here. Maybe a couple really spewy hands like 1010 and AJs or weaker suited aces might find there way in there too, but I'd say those are very unlikely.

Bottom line is KK is way ahead of the vast majority of villain's range in this spot and we are happy to get it in here.
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Old Today, 08:43 AM   #17
Petrucci
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Re: KK 250 BB deep:preflop decision in late night underground game

Alright, time for results. Probably not a big surprise to many of you- villain showed up with AA. Second time that same game he got AA and another guy KK, pretty sick stuff. I took a few seconds to get full read on the situation, and pretty quickly tossed in a redbird for the call. Villain said "same hand again"! before showing me the bad news.

The reason i made this thread was mainly to do a simple linecheck to make sure i didnt make any large mistake. I am not the type of player who chalks everything up as a cooler/setup when i lose a big pot, as i believe that is a trap many players falls into.

That being said i am convinced this particular hand was indeed an unavoidable cooler (just wanted to check my sanity you know), and that the forum seems to agree with me on this conclusion.
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